Why Meditate?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Buckwheat
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Buckwheat »

mikenz66 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

I have no hesitation whatsoever in agreeing with all your four points.

I think they're on the money, and the reason being is that they're all good advice on how to construct your path. They are all instances of the proverbial "grass, twigs, branches, & leaves" that can be "bound ... together to make a raft".
Wonderful. No more talk of "additions". :woohoo:

:anjali:
Mike
Just because I agree with Newton's theory of gravity doesn't make it Buddha-dhamma. It would still be Newton-dhamma.

My only problem with the dark night is that somebody on this thread gave me the impression that it is an unavoidable part of the Buddhist path, and a reason to tell people not to meditate. Buddha never discouraged anybody from meditating that I know of. Instead he offered a treed to meditate under. The dark night may or may not be a part of the human condition, but we can't blame that on the Buddhist path. If psychiatric patients are running into problems with meditation, it is because they are not getting the right grounding from a good teacher. Again, just my opinion.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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Ben
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ben »

At its root, meditation is a compass and a path that gives you internal guidance about how to live. It leads you towards those states of mind in which wholesome states arise more frequently and unwholesome states arise less often. It's as simple as that.

~Dr. Paul R. Fleischman
Vipassana meditation teacher for SN Goenka
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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mikenz66
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

Buckwheat wrote: My only problem with the dark night is that somebody on this thread gave me the impression that it is an unavoidable part of the Buddhist path, and a reason to tell people not to meditate. Buddha never discouraged anybody from meditating that I know of. Instead he offered a treed to meditate under.
In the Suttas the Buddha instructed followers according to their level. If they were beginners he taught them dana, sila, heavenly realms, etc first, not the four noble truths and jhana...
e.g. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensual passions, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when he saw that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path.
I've tried to carefully explain why I don't see the Theravada as deviating from the Buddha Dhamma, essentially by classifying non-canonical instructions as "Advice", not "Buddha-Dhamma".
I'd be quite comfortable to label anything other than the Tipitika not Buddha Dhamma, but of course then that would also include commentary and instructions from anyone, including those who loudly proclaim to "only teach/practise what the Buddha taught". (Unless all they ever do is recite suttas.... :reading: )

:anjali:
Mike
vinasp
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

In AN Book of Fours, chapter XVII, there is a group of eight suttas which
explain the "four modes of progress".

1. The painful mode of progress with sluggish intuition.
2. The painful mode with swift intuition.
3. The pleasant mode of progress with sluggish intuition.
4. The pleasant mode with swift intuition. [AN 4.161]

Extract from AN 4.162:

"And of what sort, monks, is the mode of progress that is painful with
sluggish intuition?
In this case a certain one is by nature passionately lustful; he experiences
the perpetual pain and dejection that are born of lust. Likewise he is by
nature passionately malicious; he experiences the perpetual pain and dejection
that are born of malice. Likewise he is by nature passionately infatuated; he
experiences the perpetual pain and dejection that are born of delusion."

[ PTS Gradual Sayings, Vol II, page 153, translated by F.L.Woodward.]

My understanding, from reading these discourses, is that for some people
progress is slow and painful for the entire path, from start to finish.
For others, it it painful but progress is faster. For the lucky ones, progress
is pleasant.

These are not yet available on ATI, perhaps they can be found on another site?

Regards, Vincent.
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manas
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by manas »

Hi Ron, all,

I wonder if some who 'take what is useful, and leave out what seems obscure or outdated' from the Buddha's teachings on meditation realize that samma vayama, samma sati and samma samadhi are only three aspects of an eight-limbed Path. Meditation isn't meant to be practised in isolation from right view, right resolve, right speech, and the rest... So I guess I wanted to ask Ron, where would you stand regarding this? Because I suspect that many of the problems that potential students might have had in the past could be due to thinking that meditation alone could somehow bring us to enlightenment, when the actual precription is much more extensive. (And regarding Virtue and the keeping of precepts, one would expect that these become integral to one's lifestyle over the long-term, and not just for the length of time one is on retreat; a change of heart, rather than just a temporary restraint which can be dispensed with once the work has been done...?)

with metta; and I am only asking because I seek your view on this, I'm not implying that you actually have such a view

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ron,
Ron Crouch wrote:retro - what I'm teaching is right down the middle Visuddhimagga and Mahasi Sayadaw style buddhism
Then that is what it would be best to call it.

:meditate:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Last edited by retrofuturist on Tue May 22, 2012 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed grammar
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

I have no hesitation whatsoever in agreeing with all your four points.

I think they're on the money, and the reason being is that they're all good advice on how to construct your path. They are all instances of the proverbial "grass, twigs, branches, & leaves" that can be "bound ... together to make a raft".
Wonderful. No more talk of "additions". :woohoo:
They're the additions to Buddha Dhamma that can be used to construct the path.

They don't need Buddha-dhamma TM stamped on them to make a good raft.

But similarly, if they're leaves, they're not branches. If they're branches, they're not grass etc. We don't call "branches" "grass", simply because they can both be used to build a raft, do we?

Out of interest, why is "additions" so problematic for you?
addition - a component that is added to something to improve it; "the addition of a bathroom was a major improvement"; "the addition of cinnamon improved the flavor"
addition - the act of adding one thing to another; "the addition of flowers created a pleasing effect"; "the addition of a leap day every four years"
addition - a quantity that is added; "there was an addition to property taxes this year"; "they recorded the cattle's gain in weight over a period of weeks"
addition - something added to what you already have; "the librarian shelved the new accessions"; "he was a new addition to the staff"
Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/addition" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't understand how any of that is in the least bit worth becoming consternated about. It is what it is.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ron,
Ron Crouch wrote:retro - what I'm teaching is right down the middle Visuddhimagga and Mahasi Sayadaw style buddhism
Then that is what it is would be best to call it.

:meditate:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Sure, just as there is Retro Style Buddhism.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Sure, just as there is Retro Style Buddhism.
Yes, the Noble Eightfold Path is fabricated.

As I said earlier (in that other topic), there are as many types of path and there are people on the path.

My path is not identical to anyone else's.

May your Tilt-fabricated-N8P cross you to the other shore!

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:
May your Tilt-fabricated-N8P cross you to the other shore!

Metta,
Retro. :)
My Tilt-fabricated-Buddha-Dhamma-N8P
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
retrofuturist wrote:May your Tilt-fabricated-N8P cross you to the other shore!
tiltbillings wrote:My Tilt-fabricated-Buddha-Dhamma-N8P
Perhaps you could explain what you mean here.

Are you saying that you use the Buddha's Dhamma to construct your raft (exclusively? partially?) or are you claiming to be a.... :buddha2: ?

Why was it important to you, personally, to say that your path is Buddha-dhamma?

Speaking for myself, I'm perfectly comfortable to call my path a Retro-fabricated-N8P even though I regularly insist on building my path with Buddha-dhamma-brand materials. I wouldn't call my path itself Buddha-dhamma, unless I was a Buddha, which of course I'm not.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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manas
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by manas »

retrofuturist wrote:
Speaking for myself, I'm perfectly comfortable to call my path a Retro-fabricated-N8P even though I regularly insist on building my path with Buddha-dhamma-brand materials. I wouldn't call my path itself Buddha-dhamma, unless I was a Buddha, which of course I'm not.
So it would appear that we all have to fabricate the Path for ourselves, out of five heaps, using an ancient instruction manual written in a foreign language...

:P
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

Buckwheat wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

I have no hesitation whatsoever in agreeing with all your four points.

I think they're on the money, and the reason being is that they're all good advice on how to construct your path. They are all instances of the proverbial "grass, twigs, branches, & leaves" that can be "bound ... together to make a raft".
Wonderful. No more talk of "additions". :woohoo:

:anjali:
Mike
Just because I agree with Newton's theory of gravity doesn't make it Buddha-dhamma. It would still be Newton-dhamma.

My only problem with the dark night is that somebody on this thread gave me the impression that it is an unavoidable part of the Buddhist path, and a reason to tell people not to meditate. Buddha never discouraged anybody from meditating that I know of. Instead he offered a treed to meditate under. The dark night may or may not be a part of the human condition, but we can't blame that on the Buddhist path. If psychiatric patients are running into problems with meditation, it is because they are not getting the right grounding from a good teacher. Again, just my opinion.

Hey Buckwheat - I sure hope that it wasn't me that gave you that impression! Please check out my response to the question of whether or not the DN is inevitable:

"@mikenz66- regarding the question of whether the path inevitably leads to a dark night, the answer is, unfortunately, "it depends." The issue rests on the kind of meditation a person is doing. In classical buddhism there is a distinction made between "wet" and "dry" insight, which is the difference between the insight knowledges (nanas) experienced directly after deep concentration ("wet" = jhana) or without deep concentration ("dry" = no jhana). If you are doing it wet, then the dukkha nanas (dark night stages) seem like a breeze, a mild bit of turbulence in an otherwise smooth flight. If you are doing it dry however, then the dukkha nanas can really rock your world - and not in a good way. In the old texts and commentaries they divide it up into these two types as if they were all or nothing, but in truth almost everyone mixes it up and so the ambiguous answer of "it depends." Essentially, it depends on how deep your concentration is and how well you use it to move through the insight stages. So, while everyone will go through the insights into suffering in one form or another, how you experience it depends a lot on your concentration. Stronger concentration equals less difficulty."

If you are getting confused by what I'm saying about the DN, then please check out the research that Dr. Britton is doing on it in her lab at Brown, or listen to podcast interview on Buddhist Geeks: http://www.cheetahhouse.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also - please don't think that I'm blaming buddhism for the dark night - I use that phrase deliberately to point out how it is a universal situation and not limited to any particular path. It is an important issue in all contemplative traditions. I would very much like to dissuade from the notion that people that are experiencing problems are all psychiatric patients. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The people I work with are some of the most successful and high-functioning people out there. It's a privilege to have their time and help them out.
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manas
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by manas »

Hi Ron,

I was wondering if you also train your students in the other aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path? Because afaik meditation isn't meant to be done in isolation, but rather as one (very important) part of a whole. Maybe alot of the inner drama experienced by some is the result of an imbalance, in the sense of too much meditation vs not enough dana, sila, noble companionship, and other things that provide the groundwork for later transformation?

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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mikenz66
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

mikenz66 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: Wonderful. No more talk of "additions". :woohoo:
They're the additions to Buddha Dhamma that can be used to construct the path.

They don't need Buddha-dhamma TM stamped on them to make a good raft.

But similarly, if they're leaves, they're not branches. If they're branches, they're not grass etc. We don't call "branches" "grass", simply because they can both be used to build a raft, do we?

Out of interest, why is "additions" so problematic for you?
It's not in itself.

It's the suggestion that anyone has a path that is free of additions that is "pure Buddha-Dhamma".

I disagree with statements such as:
1. Venerable X teaches "Buddha-Dhamma", Venerable Y teaches "something else"; or
2. Practitioner A practices "Buddha-Dhamma", Practioner B practices "something else".

:anjali:
Mike
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