Why Meditate?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Travis
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Travis »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Travis,
Travis wrote:The two don't seem contradictory to me. The diagram doesn't account for the relative experience of each individual Nana (1. only pleasant or neutral feeling), only the perceived [including 2. difficulties (unpleasant feeling, etc.)] and the actual progress.
Sure, and perhaps the lack of labelling of the axes is leading to different interpretations about precisely what it means.
:thinking:
X=Time
Y=Perception of progress/speed of noting
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Travis,

OK, I can see what's happened... my screen doesn't go that wide and I'm not seeing the full image.

Either way, still keen on Robert's response to Ron's statement.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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rowboat
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by rowboat »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Travis,

OK, I can see what's happened... my screen doesn't go that wide and I'm not seeing the full image.

Either way, still keen on Robert's response to Ron's statement.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Image

Also you should be able to resize your screen simply by adjusting the text size.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
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mikenz66
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

It would also be interesting to see descriptions from teachers who are using different approaches.
I gave a quote from Ajahn Chah here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =0#p188525" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ajahn Chah wrote:My way of training people involves some suffering, because suffering is the Buddha’s path to enlightenment. He wanted us to see suffering, and to see origination, cessation, and the path. This is the way out for all the aryas, the awakened ones. If you don’t go this way, there is no way out.
And, of course Ajahn Chah's comments are straight from the suttas:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Buddha wrote:I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.'
:anjali:
Mike
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robertk
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by robertk »

Dear retro
mike has already found the relevant passage from the Visuddhimagga earlier in the thread:
This is worth exploring, I think. Let's look at the relevant passage:
Visuddhimagga XXI
PDF Here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... index.html
[3. KNOWLEDGE OF APPEARANCE AS TERROR]

29. As he repeats, develops and cultivates in this way the contemplation of
dissolution, the object of which is cessation consisting in the destruction, fall
and breakup of all formations, then formations classed according to all kinds of
becoming, generation, destiny, station, or abode of beings, appear to him in the
form of a great terror, as lions, tigers, leopards, bears, hyenas, spirits, ogres, fierce
bulls, savage dogs, rut-maddened wild elephants, hideous venomous serpents,
thunderbolts, charnel grounds, battlefields, flaming coal pits, etc., appear to a
timid man who wants to live in peace. When he sees how past formations have
ceased, present ones are ceasing, and those to be generated in the future will
cease in just the same way, then what is called knowledge of appearance as
terror arises in him at that stage.

30. Here is a simile: a woman’s three sons had offended against the king, it
seems. The king ordered their heads to be cut off. She went with her sons to the
place of their execution. When they had cut off the eldest one’s head, they set
about cutting off the middle one’s head. Seeing the eldest one’s head already
cut off and the middle one’s head being cut off, she gave up hope for the youngest,
thinking, “He too will fare like them.” Now, the meditator’s seeing the cessation
of past formations is like the woman’s seeing the eldest son’s head cut off. His
seeing the cessation of those present is like her seeing the middle one’s head
being cut off. His seeing the cessation of those in the future, thinking, “Formations
to be generated in the future will cease too,” is like her giving up hope for the
youngest son, thinking, “He too will fare like them.” When he sees in this way,
knowledge of appearance as terror arises in him at that stage.
...
32. But does the knowledge of appearance as terror [itself] fear or does it not
fear? It does not fear. For it is simply the mere judgment that past formations have
ceased, present ones are ceasing, and future ones will cease. Just as a man with
eyes looking at three charcoal pits at a city gate is not himself afraid, since he
only forms the mere judgment that all who fall into them will suffer no little
pain
;—or just as when a man with eyes looks at three spikes set in a row, an
acacia spike, an iron spike, and a gold spike, he is not himself afraid, since he
only forms the mere judgment that all who fall on these spikes will suffer no
little pain;—so too the knowledge of appearance as terror does not itself fear; it
only forms the mere judgment that in the three kinds of becoming, which resemble
the three charcoal pits and the three spikes, past formations have ceased, present
ones are ceasing, and future ones will cease.

33. But it is called “appearance as terror” only because formations in all kinds
of becoming, generation, destiny, station, or abode are fearful in being bound for
destruction and so they appear only as a terror.
...

---------------------
Mike also found mahasi sayadaws unfortunate take on the passage

Mahasi Sayadaw's Summary says:
6. Awareness of Fearfulness (bhayatupatthāna-ñāna)

When that knowledge of dissolution is mature, there will gradually arise, just by seeing the dissolution of all object-and-subject-formations, awareness of fearfulness {37} and other (higher) knowledges, together with their respective aspects of fear, and so on. {38}

Having seen how the dissolution of two things — that is, any object noticed and the insight-thought engaged in noticing it — takes place moment by moment, the meditator also understands by inference that in the past, too, every conditioned thing (formation) has broken up in the same way, that just so it will break up also in the future, and that at the present it breaks up, too. And just at the time of noticing any formations that are evident, these formations will appear to him in their aspect of fearfulness. Therefore, during the very act of noticing, the meditator will also come to understand: "These formations are indeed fearful."

Such understanding of their fearfulness is called "knowledge of the awareness of fearfulness"; it has also the name "knowledge of fear." At that time, his mind itself is gripped by fear and seems helpless.{37} Bhay'upatthāna. The word bhaya has the subjective aspect of fear and the objective aspect of fearfulness, danger. Both are included in the significance of the term in this context.
{38} This refers to the knowledges described in the following (Nos. 7-11).
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robertk
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by robertk »

To add to the last post. The idea in that diagram that as WISDOM grows - even to the extent that vipassana nanas are attained, that one would want to stop developing further doesn't make sense. The opposite should be true I think.

It looks like a misapprehension of what wisdom is and what the path is.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .soma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the Dhamma, good in the beginning, good in the middle, good in the end, possessed of meaning and the letter, and complete in everything;
Last edited by robertk on Fri May 25, 2012 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

robertk wrote:Dear retro
mike has already found the relevant passage from the Visuddhimagga earlier in the thread:
This is worth exploring, I think. Let's look at the relevant passage:
Visuddhimagga XXI
PDF Here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... index.html
[3. KNOWLEDGE OF APPEARANCE AS TERROR]

29. As he repeats, develops and cultivates in this way the contemplation of
dissolution, the object of which is cessation consisting in the destruction, fall
and breakup of all formations, then formations classed according to all kinds of
becoming, generation, destiny, station, or abode of beings, appear to him in the
form of a great terror, as lions, tigers, leopards, bears, hyenas, spirits, ogres, fierce
bulls, savage dogs, rut-maddened wild elephants, hideous venomous serpents,
thunderbolts, charnel grounds, battlefields, flaming coal pits, etc., appear to a
timid man who wants to live in peace. When he sees how past formations have
ceased, present ones are ceasing, and those to be generated in the future will
cease in just the same way, then what is called knowledge of appearance as
terror arises in him at that stage.

30. Here is a simile: a woman’s three sons had offended against the king, it
seems. The king ordered their heads to be cut off. She went with her sons to the
place of their execution. When they had cut off the eldest one’s head, they set
about cutting off the middle one’s head. Seeing the eldest one’s head already
cut off and the middle one’s head being cut off, she gave up hope for the youngest,
thinking, “He too will fare like them.” Now, the meditator’s seeing the cessation
of past formations is like the woman’s seeing the eldest son’s head cut off. His
seeing the cessation of those present is like her seeing the middle one’s head
being cut off. His seeing the cessation of those in the future, thinking, “Formations
to be generated in the future will cease too,” is like her giving up hope for the
youngest son, thinking, “He too will fare like them.” When he sees in this way,
knowledge of appearance as terror arises in him at that stage.
...
32. But does the knowledge of appearance as terror [itself] fear or does it not
fear? It does not fear. For it is simply the mere judgment that past formations have
ceased, present ones are ceasing, and future ones will cease. Just as a man with
eyes looking at three charcoal pits at a city gate is not himself afraid, since he
only forms the mere judgment that all who fall into them will suffer no little
pain
;—or just as when a man with eyes looks at three spikes set in a row, an
acacia spike, an iron spike, and a gold spike, he is not himself afraid, since he
only forms the mere judgment that all who fall on these spikes will suffer no
little pain;—so too the knowledge of appearance as terror does not itself fear; it
only forms the mere judgment that in the three kinds of becoming, which resemble
the three charcoal pits and the three spikes, past formations have ceased, present
ones are ceasing, and future ones will cease.

33. But it is called “appearance as terror” only because formations in all kinds
of becoming, generation, destiny, station, or abode are fearful in being bound for
destruction and so they appear only as a terror.
...

---------------------
Mike also found mahasi sayadaws unfortunate take on the passage

Mahasi Sayadaw's Summary says:
6. Awareness of Fearfulness (bhayatupatthāna-ñāna)

When that knowledge of dissolution is mature, there will gradually arise, just by seeing the dissolution of all object-and-subject-formations, awareness of fearfulness {37} and other (higher) knowledges, together with their respective aspects of fear, and so on. {38}

Having seen how the dissolution of two things — that is, any object noticed and the insight-thought engaged in noticing it — takes place moment by moment, the meditator also understands by inference that in the past, too, every conditioned thing (formation) has broken up in the same way, that just so it will break up also in the future, and that at the present it breaks up, too. And just at the time of noticing any formations that are evident, these formations will appear to him in their aspect of fearfulness. Therefore, during the very act of noticing, the meditator will also come to understand: "These formations are indeed fearful."

Such understanding of their fearfulness is called "knowledge of the awareness of fearfulness"; it has also the name "knowledge of fear." At that time, his mind itself is gripped by fear and seems helpless.{37} Bhay'upatthāna. The word bhaya has the subjective aspect of fear and the objective aspect of fearfulness, danger. Both are included in the significance of the term in this context.
{38} This refers to the knowledges described in the following (Nos. 7-11).

Now we're getting somewhere!

Thanks for bringing this up, as Mike did earlier in the conversation. My take on it then and now is that it is an apparent contradiction based on the process one goes through in each insight knowledge.

When a person enters the insight knowledge of terror - they experience terror. This should be obvious just by the name. After it is experienced the meditator investigates it (watches it come and go on its own), then they stop identifying with it and feel equanimity toward it and a lot of relief. The highlighted text in the VM describes the process of stopping one's identification, while the highlighted text in Mahasi describes the process of experiencing it initially. They both describe what happens, just different parts of the same event that we label "insight."

Insight isn't one event, it is a process with steps to it. So each insight knowledge has a characteristic (anicca, dukkha or anatta) that is directly experienced, investigated and understood (phenomena are abandoned).

If you go back to the Vittumagga you'll see that it described both fear and tranquility both occurring in this very insight knowledge
http://www.urbandharma.org/pdf1/Path_of ... imagga.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
How is that possible? Because they both do - first the fear, then the tranquility when it is abandoned.
dhamma_newb
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by dhamma_newb »

Here's an excerpt from an article where vipassana teacher Steve Armstrong talks about one of his students who experienced what sounds like a "dark night" but continued with her practice and reached stream entry:
...practice sometimes uncovers extremely unpleasant, destabilizing or counterintuitive mental terrain that advancing meditators can easily misunderstand. Armstrong, who was a monk for five years under the guidance of Sayadaw U Pandita at the Mahasi Meditation Center in Rangoon, cites an example of what can happen when Western dharma teachers fail to properly understand the emerging insight knowledge of dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) and anatta (not-self or impersonality), two of the three universal characteristics of all phenomena.

"A good student of mine several years ago was undertaking a three-month retreat—she had already been practicing a few years—and was at a stage in her practice where her sense of self was very porous and destabilized,” he recalls. “However, she was gaining insight knowledge into the way things are. At the end of her retreat, when she went back home, she felt extremely ill-at-ease. She went to her local dharma teacher for advice, who told her, ‘You need therapy.’ ”

Nonetheless, the yogi’s inner voice told her she had come this far by relating to all meditative objects—mental, physical, good, bad or indifferent—on a sensate, rather than psychological level. She had enough resolve to choose the cushion over the couch, Armstrong says. “She went to Burma, ordained as a nun, and through intensive practice over the course of the next year attained the first of the Four Paths of Enlightenment,” he says. “That was fortunate for her, but it also illustrates the limitations of teachers who have not yet experienced the first path, and then offer teachings from a perspective which might be more about psychology than vipassana.” - Steve Armstong - Buddhist Geeks interview
The watched mind brings happiness.
Dhp 36

I am larger and better than I thought. I did not know I held so much goodness.
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daverupa
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by daverupa »

If this is such a common problem, where are the dark-nights-of-the soul amongst monastics in the Suttas (and not the ones associated with asubha)? Nearly everyone is described as having a relatively radiant expression, being peaceful of comportment, and so on. There are descriptions of there being benefit to the Path even for those with tears streaming down their face, so there is challenge, but this is not easily associated with bhavana.

Samadhi is soft, and not harsh as here, due to sila, brahmavihara, samatha, jhana. There are obstacles to the Path, but for those experiencing dark nights as part of the path, I wonder about the place and degree of these things for them.

This also serves as a response to 'why meditate' - it can be imagined ("meditation is like...") as hard-wiring kusala ("!") improvements (sila, et al) and trimming akusala counterparts. This prevents dark nights as every insight is pleasant confirmation of the Dhamma ("...revolves around right view", preventing confusion and fear in the face of knowledge, insight), not stressful contradiction with expectation & habit.

/ :soap:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Prasadachitta »

daverupa wrote:If this is such a common problem, where are the dark-nights-of-the soul amongst monastics in the Suttas (and not the ones associated with asubha)? Nearly everyone is described as having a relatively radiant expression, being peaceful of comportment, and so on. There are descriptions of there being benefit to the Path even for those with tears streaming down their face, so there is challenge, but this is not easily associated with bhavana.
Hi Daverupa,

After having had to pretty much insist that the Buddha let him go and meditate Meghiya has an awful time under a particular mango tree.

Metta
Prasadachitta

Now while the Venerable Meghiya was staying in that mango grove, there kept occurring to him three bad, unwholesome kinds of thoughts: sensual thought, malevolent thought, and cruel thought. The Venerable Meghiya then reflected: "It is indeed strange! It is indeed remarkable! Although I have gone forth out of faith from home to the homeless state, yet I am overwhelmed by these three bad, unwholesome kinds of thoughts: sensual thought, malevolent thought, and cruel thought."

Then the Venerable Meghiya, on emerging from seclusion in the late afternoon, approached the Lord, prostrated himself, sat down to one side, and said: "Revered sir, while I was staying in that mango grove there kept occurring to me three bad, unwholesome kinds of thoughts... and I thought: 'It is indeed strange!... I am overwhelmed by these three bad, unwholesome kinds of thoughts: sensual thought, malevolent thought, and cruel thought.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
Nyana
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Nyana »

Prasadachitta wrote:After having had to pretty much insist that the Buddha let him go and meditate Meghiya has an awful time under a particular mango tree.
It seems that many of the cases where monks and nuns are reporting these kinds of path difficulties in the Nikāyas, the problem is connected to a lack of samādhi.
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by hanzze_ »

"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...

"This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference."

— DN 22
Of cause it has it's roots in the virtue section of the path, that one is not able to "putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world" as it is the raw training for it and to lighten the defilements.

Establishing virtue prevents "dark nights", even form all kind of dreams. If "just" preventing form "dark nights", metta meditation is very effective.
Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

hanzze_ wrote:
"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...

"This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference."

— DN 22
Of cause it has it's roots in the virtue section of the path, that one is not able to "putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world" as it is the raw training for it and to lighten the defilements.

Establishing virtue prevents "dark nights", even form all kind of dreams. If "just" preventing form "dark nights", metta meditation is very effective.
I've mentioned this several times in this discussion already - but let me say it again- experiencing the dukkha nanas is not a sign that your sila is off. You really can't get as far as the dukkha nanas if your behavior is poor. The Steve Armstrong quote above is a good standard description of what a student experiences. They get their act together, do the practice correctly and then get direct insight into impermanence, suffering and non-self. The dukkha nanas are part of the whole process and a sign that the practice is on track.

The problem is when a person stops investigating at this point, because it is upsetting to experience dukkha directly. This leads to not letting go of dukkha and not moving on to equanimity - hence getting "stuck" in the dark night. Luckily the student in the Armstrong example chose to keep going with her practice and it had a good result. Not everyone has such a good outcome.
jason c
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by jason c »

why meditate?
because we never know who will come out of meditation, and sometimes we get a promotion. :woohoo:
jason
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mikenz66
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Dave,
daverupa wrote:If this is such a common problem, where are the dark-nights-of-the soul amongst monastics in the Suttas...
How do you interpret the many passages like the following?
I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress [dukkha]... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.'
To me, it seems to be talking about experiencing dukkha.
Ñāṇa wrote:
Prasadachitta wrote:After having had to pretty much insist that the Buddha let him go and meditate Meghiya has an awful time under a particular mango tree.
It seems that many of the cases where monks and nuns are reporting these kinds of path difficulties in the Nikāyas, the problem is connected to a lack of samādhi.
Sure, but I the point is that there are difficulties described. The more successful accounts do seem to come with good samadhi:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, & bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge & vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, & dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.' Just as if there were a beautiful beryl gem of the purest water — eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in all its aspects, and going through the middle of it was a blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread — and a man with good eyesight, taking it in his hand, were to reflect on it thus: 'This is a beautiful beryl gem of the purest water, eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in all its aspects. And this, going through the middle of it, is a blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread.' ...
And don't overlook the descriptions of encounters with mara...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... #bhikkhuni" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For example:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Then Mara the Evil One, desiring to arouse fear, trepidation, and terror in the bhikkhuni Sela, desiring to make her fall away from concentration, approached her and addressed her in verse:
  • By whom has this puppet been created?
    Where is the maker of the puppet?
    Where has the puppet arisen?
    Where does the puppet cease?
Then it occurred to the bhikkhuni Sela: "Now who is this...? This is Mara the Evil One... desiring to make me fall away from concentration."
:anjali:
Mike
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