Why Meditate?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Ron Crouch wrote: I've mentioned this several times in this discussion already - but let me say it again- experiencing the dukkha nanas is not a sign that your sila is off. You really can't get as far as the dukkha nanas if your behavior is poor.
Hi Ron,

Behavior is not always apparent. Much of our behavior is mental and not therefore easily recognizable. What kind of signs would you expect if "your sila is off"? What kinds of mental activity is it that characterizes the "Dark Night" as you understand it?

Thanks

Prasadachitta
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
nibs
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon May 03, 2010 9:37 pm

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by nibs »

hanzze_ wrote:
"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...

"This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference."

— DN 22
Of cause it has it's roots in the virtue section of the path, that one is not able to "putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world" as it is the raw training for it and to lighten the defilements.

Establishing virtue prevents "dark nights", even form all kind of dreams. If "just" preventing form "dark nights", metta meditation is very effective.
I was living at a goenka centre for over a year, then onto live for 9 or so months at Dhamma Giri cleaning Goenka's place of residence there as a pali student. I had been pretty good at observing the 5 sila and establishing them as the guiding principles within my mind for well over over 2 years. I would say i was quite 'virtuous' in my efforts to observe and maintain it all. However, even Goenka warns of the 'sleeping defilements' that may arise post -what he calls- 'bhanga'. Observing sila meticulously as well as 'I' could, 'I' still went through some personal hell while living quite a virtuous lifestyle for a while. I even tested the waters of monkhood in Burma as well. Yet, some pretty painful negativities were being awakened within while sitting/practicing so much as well as while being hardcore about sila, maybe too hardcore...establishing an identity around it.

But I think Ñana points to the the cause of it. I was not able to see why 'I' was suffering like so. Sure, I could see the compounding of sensations with a mental overlay of negativity, but it sometimes got too much to fabricate equanimity towards those sensations as Goenka instructs. I lacked a more pliant, malleable and luminous mind, which samadhi can definitely help in cultivating. My anapana skills were lacking. The habitual patterns where too strong to simply watch arise and pass dispassionately. Without that pliant, malleable and luminous mind, I was not able to really pull the 'dark night' elements apart and see their cause and cessation. Thus they kept compounding. If the cause for such 'darkness' within is seen clearly without hindrance, surely then their cessation will also present without hindrance.

Nibs.
Ron Crouch
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 4:32 pm

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

Prasadachitta wrote:
Ron Crouch wrote: I've mentioned this several times in this discussion already - but let me say it again- experiencing the dukkha nanas is not a sign that your sila is off. You really can't get as far as the dukkha nanas if your behavior is poor.
Hi Ron,

Behavior is not always apparent. Much of our behavior is mental and not therefore easily recognizable. What kind of signs would you expect if "your sila is off"? What kinds of mental activity is it that characterizes the "Dark Night" as you understand it?

Thanks

Prasadachitta
Hi Prasadachitta,

This is an excellent set of questions. The kind that I always hope students will ask because they are so fundamental and important. You're statement is brief, but you really have three questions here: what mental activity compromises sila, what does it look like when your sila is off, and what happens in the mind during the Dark Night.

What mental activity compromises sila?: When it comes to sila, the primary thing going on between the ears is intention. That's what counts the most. Almost every behavior has intention as its direct parent. Therefore, the very first step, the baby step, is the intention to line one's behavior up with the pre-requisites for insight (or at least the five precepts).

What does it look like when your sila is off?: First, you aren't meditating much. When you do, you're intention to follow a particular technique or object doesn't work - you just can't do it. Sila does a lot of wonderful things for us, but one of the most important ones in terms of the overall path is to get us to a place where we can actually take time to sit and when we do we can actually do the techniques that get us the insights needed to liberate ourselves. As your sila gets better you can sit and do a technique but it doesn't get much "traction" (i.e. you don't experience the insight knowledges). As your sila gets even better you can sit, stay on track with a technique, and you experience the insight knowledges too - at this point it really is about maintaining your sila and perfecting it further as you see fit. Your instincts can guide you at this point because you've had a good taste of how this whole process works. You may need the advice of a teacher if something complicated comes up (like a serious illness that you have a lot of ill-will with or a death in the family that tempts you to drink, etc.) but overall, you have a good sense of how it works.
I can say through personal experience that one of the things I see most in students whose sila is off, at least in Western students, is a complete lack of a sense of humor about their own behavior and about meditation overall. Just a total lack of vivaciousness in that area of their life. I stress that this is more a personal observation than anything, but it has been pretty consistent. When a person really gets their act together enough to meditate well, they no longer take themselves very seriously.

Finally, what happens in the mind during the Dark Night?: During a DN the mind goes through six stages, each with it's own particular "flavor" of dukkha. First is experiences dissolution, or the breaking up of the self (which can actually be quite pleasant), next it experiences "fear" (terror of the loss of self), then "misery" (grieving over the loss of self), then "disgust" (realization that what we think brings us happiness simply can't), then "desire for deliverance" (a wish for liberation from all phenomena) and finally "reobservation" (all the previous stages combined and re-observed many times).

When we have successfully investigated each of these insight knowledges we finally end up in "Equanimity" which is a huge relief following a DN. From there we can prep the mind to make the leap into stream-entry.

I hope this answers your questions - please don't hesitate to ask more!
Ron Crouch
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 4:32 pm

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

nibs wrote:
But I think Ñana points to the the cause of it. I was not able to see why 'I' was suffering like so. Sure, I could see the compounding of sensations with a mental overlay of negativity, but it sometimes got too much to fabricate equanimity towards those sensations as Goenka instructs. I lacked a more pliant, malleable and luminous mind, which samadhi can definitely help in cultivating. My anapana skills were lacking. The habitual patterns where too strong to simply watch arise and pass dispassionately. Without that pliant, malleable and luminous mind, I was not able to really pull the 'dark night' elements apart and see their cause and cessation. Thus they kept compounding. If the cause for such 'darkness' within is seen clearly without hindrance, surely then their cessation will also present without hindrance.

Nibs.

Hooray for direct experience! It comes to the rescue once again when doubts arise.

Thank you so much Nibs, for being brave and sharing.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Ron,
Ron Crouch wrote: I stress that this is more a personal observation than anything, but it has been pretty consistent. When a person really gets their act together enough to meditate well, they no longer take themselves very seriously.
Thanks for that observation. I think that's also the case for teachers and monks I've met. [At least in small group interactions - sometimes it's necessary for them to play the Serious Role. ]

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
hanzze_
Posts: 261
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 4:30 am

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by hanzze_ »

nibs wrote:
hanzze_ wrote:
"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...

"This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference."

— DN 22
Of cause it has it's roots in the virtue section of the path, that one is not able to "putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world" as it is the raw training for it and to lighten the defilements.

Establishing virtue prevents "dark nights", even form all kind of dreams. If "just" preventing form "dark nights", metta meditation is very effective.
I was living at a goenka centre for over a year, then onto live for 9 or so months at Dhamma Giri cleaning Goenka's place of residence there as a pali student. I had been pretty good at observing the 5 sila and establishing them as the guiding principles within my mind for well over over 2 years. I would say i was quite 'virtuous' in my efforts to observe and maintain it all. However, even Goenka warns of the 'sleeping defilements' that may arise post -what he calls- 'bhanga'. Observing sila meticulously as well as 'I' could, 'I' still went through some personal hell while living quite a virtuous lifestyle for a while. I even tested the waters of monkhood in Burma as well. Yet, some pretty painful negativities were being awakened within while sitting/practicing so much as well as while being hardcore about sila, maybe too hardcore...establishing an identity around it.

But I think Ñana points to the the cause of it. I was not able to see why 'I' was suffering like so. Sure, I could see the compounding of sensations with a mental overlay of negativity, but it sometimes got too much to fabricate equanimity towards those sensations as Goenka instructs. I lacked a more pliant, malleable and luminous mind, which samadhi can definitely help in cultivating. My anapana skills were lacking. The habitual patterns where too strong to simply watch arise and pass dispassionately. Without that pliant, malleable and luminous mind, I was not able to really pull the 'dark night' elements apart and see their cause and cessation. Thus they kept compounding. If the cause for such 'darkness' within is seen clearly without hindrance, surely then their cessation will also present without hindrance.

Nibs.
Let me bring a maybe more worldly sample: When I was 20 I had already reached the to be the most busy project manager of communal instruction projects in our civil engineer office. Not like today just managing, but also doing the most work by one self. From design to contracts, surveying, supervision... The project volume I had was about 50 million $ I was responsible. As a civil engineer you are in the middle of a battle on all frontiers while virtue and responsibility (security of live and material) has a very high level. I used to use all my energy in tricky everything in the way people like to have it, and it was running well, but at night I was having much night mares. After a month I was sick of it and decided to look for the reason for it.
When I looked I saw that there was a fear, a fear that I would be one time not aware enough to keep all this kind of trickiness alive. I realized that my desire for success has grown higher than the value I gave to virtue. And seeing that I putted it in the right order again. "What ever you do, there is nothing more important that your own heart, your own goodness and honesty. If it should not be honored, it would not be that problem as if you do something that is against your nature. You can trust your self in regards of your profession as well as your natural sensitivity for virtue."

Since that time I never had any nightmare and restless night or fear again. I did the things in the same way, of cause many had to turn their ways of "business and success first" into more firm and responsible work. But worldly ways how ever have also their limits.

The point was, that I mixed virtue with other ideas of success and gave success preference. Ideas of how it should be rather that to listen honestly to my own heart. That this ways are also ways for a worldly life was also observable. Some years later I had my own office and this success even goes further as there are limits of success on a worldly lane, because there are limits of virtue.

It all comes down to the maybe most important word, a word Buddha mentioned to be more important that as any worship of Nibbana as it is the key to it: Appamada!

Old kamma may ripen, but there will be no base for new as well as the appamada is the key to look through it and to protect against unskillful reacting.
Ron Crouch
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 4:32 pm

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Ron,
Ron Crouch wrote: I stress that this is more a personal observation than anything, but it has been pretty consistent. When a person really gets their act together enough to meditate well, they no longer take themselves very seriously.
Thanks for that observation. I think that's also the case for teachers and monks I've met. [At least in small group interactions - sometimes it's necessary for them to play the Serious Role. ]

:anjali:
Mike

Totally. The monks that I've worked with and learned the most from were actually hilarious fun when they weren't in their "serious role". I have a few stories of pranks being pulled on me by a few big-hearted monks. Not only does good intention lead to virtuous behavior, liberation leads to fun!
User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Ron Crouch wrote: Finally, what happens in the mind during the Dark Night?: During a DN the mind goes through six stages, each with it's own particular "flavor" of dukkha. First is experiences dissolution, or the breaking up of the self (which can actually be quite pleasant), next it experiences "fear" (terror of the loss of self), then "misery" (grieving over the loss of self), then "disgust" (realization that what we think brings us happiness simply can't), then "desire for deliverance" (a wish for liberation from all phenomena) and finally "reobservation" (all the previous stages combined and re-observed many times).

When we have successfully investigated each of these insight knowledges we finally end up in "Equanimity" which is a huge relief following a DN. From there we can prep the mind to make the leap into stream-entry.

I hope this answers your questions - please don't hesitate to ask more!
Hi Ron,

Thanks for the long reply. What is it that the dark night mind thinks it is grieving the loss of? I wonder if there is some particular variety of common self view which results in this kind of experience. One that is not as prevalent in everyone. Im just speculating in order to make theoretical room for a description of the insight process which I do not personally recognize. I am familiar with a sense of remorse (what is called "hri" in Buddhism) over being aware of how foolish my mind has been but that is tempered by a sense of relief that I have the opportunity to recognize and be aware as well as relief that there is no substantial self who owns that ignorance.

Prasadachitta
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
Ron Crouch
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 4:32 pm

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

Prasadachitta wrote:
Hi Ron,

Thanks for the long reply. What is it that the dark night mind thinks it is grieving the loss of? I wonder if there is some particular variety of common self view which results in this kind of experience. One that is not as prevalent in everyone. Im just speculating in order to make theoretical room for a description of the insight process which I do not personally recognize. I am familiar with a sense of remorse (what is called "hri" in Buddhism) over being aware of how foolish my mind has been but that is tempered by a sense of relief that I have the opportunity to recognize and be aware as well as relief that there is no substantial self who owns that ignorance.

Prasadachitta
If this isn't familiar to you don't worry - that is why I wrote about it in the first place and am engaging on forums like this.

Most teachers simply do not tell students that these insight stages exist and are part of the insight path. To me this is a big ethical lapse in our dhamma communities. Many students are led to believe that if they experience suffering when meditating then they are doing it wrong - when the texts themselves say something very different. Direct experience of dukkha is critcal to insight. When students are going along in the stages prior to the dukkha nanas everything is fine, they are relaxing, developing right view and increasing concentration. Their overall lives are improving. But when you get to these stages, and you have not been told that they are coming, it can be pretty awful - and that is an all too common experience these days.

If you want to verify for yourself that they are part of the path please read them in the Visuddhimagga. They start on page 666, in the chapter entitled: Purification by Knowledge and Vision of the Way
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... on2011.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But to answer question more directly, what the meditator is grieving is the self as identification with "formations". Essentially, that is everything experienced by the body and mind. One's sense of having a body, thoughts, beliefs, opinions, memories, stories of who we are, plans - everything formed by the five senses and the mind. We see directly, for the first time, that literally everything taken as "me" is literally coming and going moment-to-moment and really isn't a self. Here is a direct quote describing the insight stage of dissolution:

15. Herein, dissolution is the culminating point of impermanence, and so the meditator contemplating dissolution contemplates the whole field of formations as impermanent, not as permanent. Then, because of the painfulness of what is impermanent and because of the non-existence of self in what is painful, he contemplates that same whole field of formations as painful, not as pleasant, he contemplates it as not-self, not as self. (pg 670)

And to be clear, this is not a cognitive understanding of non-self. That comes way earlier in the initial insight stages when one is first developing right view. This is an actual experience of non-identification with ALL phenomena in a moment-to-moment manner:

“‘He contemplates as impermanent’ here not by inferential knowledge thus, “Impermanent in the sense of dissolution”, like one who is comprehending formations by groups (XX.13–14), nor by seeing fall preceded by apprehension of rise, like a beginner of insight (XX.93ff.); but rather it is after rise and fall have become apparent as actual experience..."


Or check out Mahasi Sayadaw's explanation of it in the progress of insight: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#ch6.7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"...the knowledge will come to him that whatever part of the whole body is noticed, that object ceases first, and after it the consciousness engaged in noticing that object follows in its wake. From that the meditator will understand very clearly in the case of each successive pair the dissolution of any object whatsoever and the dissolution of the consciousness noticing that very object. (It should be borne in mind that this refers only to understanding arrived at through direct experience by one engaged in noticing only; it is not an opinion derived from mere reasoning.)

I hope that addresses your question. I urge you and everyone who might read this to go to the VM and actually read it directly to better understand what the insight path is.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Ron, All,

Perhaps we could discuss another aspect of this issue. All this discussion of "Dark Nights" could give the impression that people at that stage are miserable all the time. Hence, perhaps, some of the negative comments on this thread.

My experience of this is small, but I have known personally a few of people going through this sort of process. While they talked about unsettling experiences at meditation/discussion meetings, they were, for the most part, happy, balanced people.

Any comments?

:anjali:
Mike
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by daverupa »

mikenz66 wrote:How do you interpret the many passages like the following?
I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress [dukkha]... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.'
To me, it seems to be talking about experiencing dukkha.
It's the experience of right view; where is that anywhere described as being an experience of dukkha?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Yes - Right View, proper discernment.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Ron Crouch wrote: Most teachers simply do not tell students that these insight stages exist and are part of the insight path. To me this is a big ethical lapse in our dhamma communities.
Hi Ron,

It is obvious to me from my knowledge of the Nikayas and other stories of enlighted masters (like Milarepa) that there is difficulty to be expected. I have known a fair amount of difficulty in my practice and friends I practice with have shared immense difficulties with me. Im somewhat dubious of the idea of a model that posits a seemingly generic type of difficult phase as a precise step on the path. I agree that whitewashing insight practice by not acknowledging that people often work through intense difficulty is not at all helpful. I also agree that these difficulties may not have arisen at all without the effort to practice. However, my view of practice is much more holistic than the one you and possibly the VM seem to describe. I wont go into to that now. I don't doubt the efficacy of the Burmese techniques or the use of the VM as a guide. I have attended a few of Kenneth Folks workshops and he strikes me as a very authentic and kind person who is doing his best to help people effectively meditate. I suspect that there are ways to mitigate the difficulties that arise without hindering further progress. On the contrary I would say that there are ways to greatly mitigate that difficulty while advancing the process of insight. I think the Buddha spells these ways out in his historical record and I think that the various Buddhist traditions have many of these ways embedded into them. Not only that I think it is our task to continually strive to find new ways and refresh old ones in accord with Buddhist principles. I hope that we strive to do this while at the same time realistically recognizing and acknowledging that the path is not always easy. On the contrary.

Metta

Prasadachitta
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
Ron Crouch
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 4:32 pm

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:How do you interpret the many passages like the following?
I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress [dukkha]... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.'
To me, it seems to be talking about experiencing dukkha.
It's the experience of right view; where is that anywhere described as being an experience of dukkha?

In order for there to be right view, there has to be something to view. He clearly describes that dukkha is "actually present." The order of this statement is very clear - first there is the actual experience of dukkha, then investigation into its origin and the way out, then the liberation from them.

Direct experiencing - investigation - liberation: this is how insight unfolds.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Dave, Retro,
daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:How do you interpret the many passages like the following?
I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress [dukkha]... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.'
To me, it seems to be talking about experiencing dukkha.
It's the experience of right view; where is that anywhere described as being an experience of dukkha?
Evidently there are many different ways to read the Suttas...

What is quoted above is:
"This is stress [dukkha]...".
I've always presumed that this means that we have to actually examine the dukkha in our experience, not just think about it. See Ajahn Chah's statement that I quoted back here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 55#p188525" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Perhaps it's just semantics, but the Buddha (or Sariputta in this case) talks about even jhana states as being unsatisfactory:
Thanissaro wrote: Ven. Sariputta explains to Ven. Udayin how even the most exquisitely refined and beautiful mental states are beset with dukkha; only Nibbana itself can truly be called "pleasant."
AN 9.34: Nibbana Sutta — Unbinding
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sariputta wrote:"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with equanimity, that is an affliction for him...
:anjali:
Mike
Post Reply