Meditation object

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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hanzze_
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Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 4:30 am

Re: Meditation object

Post by hanzze_ »

What to do to get the mind object Hanzze depercepted? My faults are mine, no need to apologize or feel responsible Ben.

Much mudita that you find a solutio/agreement on base of the sutta.
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Assaji
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Meditation object

Post by Assaji »

Hi Tesator,

The best clarification I know is given in the book "In This Life Itself" by Ven. Dhammajiva, on pages 23-25:

http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/dha ... 10-p2f.swf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/dha ... /index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:namaste:
tesator12
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Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:47 am

Re: Meditation object

Post by tesator12 »

Ben wrote:Yeah, if you are observing the 'touch' feeling of the air against the skin as the breath goes in and comes out, then yes, you are observing the sensation of breathing at that spot.
I think this is sort of where my question/wondering was occurring, I was thinking "What is 'the breath'" . If I took the sensation of it brushing my skin as the object, then perhaps my object of meditation wasn't the breath but instead the sensation or skin. And whether there is a difference between the breath and the sensation. All this thought led me to trying to be aware of in-breath, out-breath as a concept. I'll spend some time just watching the sensation at the area he states.

My previous experience has always been more similar to the brahm method, so it's a bit strange to be "looking for the breath" at a particular place

Thanks for the help
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hanzze_
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Re: Meditation object

Post by hanzze_ »

...In the beginning, when you first notice the power of perception, you can easily feel overwhelmed by how pervasive it is. Suppose you're focusing on the breath. There comes a point when you begin to wonder whether you're focusing on the breath itself or on your idea of the breath. Once this question arises, the normal reaction is to try to get around the idea to the raw sensation behind it. But if you're really sensitive as you do this, you'll notice that you're simply replacing one caricature of the breath with another, more subtle one. Even the raw sensation of breathing is shaped by how you conceptualize raw sensation. No matter how hard you try to pin down an unfiltered experience of breathing, you still find it shaped by your idea of what breathing actually is. The more you pursue the reality of the breath, the more it recedes like a mirage.

The trick here is to turn this fact to your advantage. After all, you're not meditating to get to the breath. You're meditating to understand the processes leading to suffering so that you can put an end to them. The way you relate to your perceptions is part of these processes, so that's what you want to see. You have to treat your experience of the breath, not as an end in itself, but as a tool for understanding the role of perception in creating suffering and stress.

You do this by de-perception: questioning your assumptions about breathing, deliberately changing those assumptions, and observing what happens as a result. Now, without the proper context, de-perception could easily wander off into random abstractions. So you take the practice of concentration as your context, providing de-perception both with a general direction and with particular tasks that force it to bump up against the operative assumptions that actually shape your experience of the present. ...continue
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mikenz66
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Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Meditation object

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote: I meant that in response to the question on how to cultivate with respect to one mental object (i.e. the breath), the Buddha actually broadened the question beyond Rahula's stated intention to in fact teach a plenitude of "meditation objects"....
However, this discourse was in response to a question from an experienced meditator, "emerging from his seclusion" to ask what to do next:
Ven. Rahula, emerging from his seclusion in the late afternoon, went to the Blessed One and, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to him, "How, lord, is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing to be developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit?"
And the Buddha told him how to build on his experience.

Rahula did not say:
Lord, I am having trouble figuring out how to follow the breath...
If he had, he would most likely have got a much more focussed answer.

One could also observe that the Anapanasati Sutta is spoken to bhikkhus well-established in their practice:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother, together with many well-known elder disciples — with Ven. Sariputta, Ven. Maha Moggallana, Ven. Maha Kassapa, Ven. Maha Kaccana, Ven. Maha Kotthita, Ven. Maha Kappina, Ven. Maha Cunda, Ven. Revata, Ven. Ananda, and other well-known elder disciples. On that occasion the elder monks were teaching & instructing. Some elder monks were teaching & instructing ten monks, some were teaching & instructing twenty monks, some were teaching & instructing thirty monks, some were teaching & instructing forty monks. The new monks, being taught & instructed by the elder monks, were discerning grand, successive distinctions.
The Anapanasati Sutta is not, therefore, an instruction manual for beginners, but an exposition of how anapanasati may be developed in a very deep way.

:anjali:
Mike
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