Why Meditate?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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manas
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by manas »

Prasadachitta wrote:Ron said....
@mikenz66- regarding the question of whether the path inevitably leads to a dark night, the answer is, unfortunately, "it depends." The issue rests on the kind of meditation a person is doing. In classical buddhism there is a distinction made between "wet" and "dry" insight, which is the difference between the insight knowledges (nanas) experienced directly after deep concentration ("wet" = jhana) or without deep concentration ("dry" = no jhana). If you are doing it wet, then the dukkha nanas (dark night stages) seem like a breeze, a mild bit of turbulence in an otherwise smooth flight. If you are doing it dry however, then the dukkha nanas can really rock your world - and not in a good way. In the old texts and commentaries they divide it up into these two types as if they were all or nothing, but in truth almost everyone mixes it up and so the ambiguous answer of "it depends." Essentially, it depends on how deep your concentration is and how well you use it to move through the insight stages. So, while everyone will go through the insights into suffering in one form or another, how you experience it depends a lot on your concentration. Stronger concentration equals less difficulty.
Hope that helps.
Hi Ron,

If we take the above as an accurate model then why not emphasize more jhana? Why risk the tendency for what sounds like a seriously depressing episode that could cause a person to quit the practice and wallow in a dark place for the rest of their life? Why would anyone advocate a "dry vipasana technique?

Prasadachitta
If one has taken upon oneself the Noble Eightfold Path, one will cultivate jhana, just as one cultivates the other factors; the Path is meant to be developed as a whole way of living, afaik. (And by 'cultivation' I meant that one is 'working on it', not that one has 'mastered' it as yet - just to be clear). So I share the concern for the 'average joe' who just walks in off the street and signs up for a ten-day retreat, without the gradual but steady preparation that comes when one cultivates the Dhamma over a longer period of time.

This is not to criticize Ron or anyone else, it's just grounded in my own personal experience. If I had tried to squeeze into ten days (or even a month) the understanding that has taken me about 20 years of (not always consistent, but gradually unfolding) practice, i would have lost my marbles, I'd say. And ime, taking things gradually, one still does not necessarily escape a 'dark night' that can make one feel as though life has lost it's meaning, that everything is deadened and has lost it's joy, that one is stuck because one cannot go back to the 'old perspective', but has not yet broken through to the newer one either - but, if one has had some time to prepare, there can be this voice inside saying, "stay calm man, it's not the end of the world! So the world isn't what you thought it was - so what? You're still here - and life still needs to be lived, whatever it's 'ultimate' nature. The floor might well be conditionally arisen, but it still needs sweeping!" :)

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
nibs
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by nibs »

Ñāṇa wrote:
nibs wrote:Have you ever experienced the cessation of all 'me-ness' and then its re-arising? One's notion of 'stress' may change if so. As you can already tell, I'm an Ayya Khema fan:
"The path moment doesn't have any thinking or feeling in it. It is not comparable to the meditative absorptions (jhana). Although it is based upon them because only the concentrated mind can enter into a path moment, it does not have the same qualities. the meditative absorptions have — in their initial stages — the ingredients of rapture, happiness and peacefulness. Later on, the mind experiences expansion, nothingness and a change of perception. The path moment does not contain any of these states of mind."
This is a mistaken understanding of the path. Supramundane path-consciousness is a supramundane jhāna which includes the presence of the jhāna factors. Visuddhimagga, Ch. 21:
  • According to governance by insight, the path arisen in a bare-insight worker, and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhāna attainment but who has not made the jhāna the basis for insight, and the path made to arise by comprehending unrelated fabrications after using the first jhāna as the basis for insight, are paths of the first jhāna only. In each case there are seven awakening factors, eight path factors, and five jhāna factors. For while their preliminary insight can be accompanied by happiness and it can be accompanied by equanimity, when their insight reaches the state of equanimity about fabrications at the time of emergence it is accompanied by happiness.
Hi Ñana,

Yeh, not a Visuddhimagga fan these days. I'd rather go with the end of what is seen as 'stress' from personal experience than what Buddhaghosa wrote. As long as it leads to the complete dropping away of misery, I'm cool with it. Each to his/her own.
Ven. Ñāṇārāma, Seven Stages of Purification & the Insight Knowledges:
  • At whatever moment he attains the supramundane path, that path-consciousness comes to be reckoned as a jhāna in itself, since it has some affinity with the factors proper to jhānas, such as the first jhāna. What are known as transcendental meditations in Buddhism are these supramundane levels of concentration within the reach of the pure insight meditator.
This is in keeping with the Dhammasaṅgaṇī, where supramundane jhāna includes the jhāna factors and the five faculties and various other saṅkhāras necessary for the presence of right view and the other components of the noble path.
I see. Sounds like abbidhamma. Not a fan either. As long as it gets someone to end of what they consider 'stress' though, I'm all for it. Thanks for expressing your take.

nibs
Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

Ñāṇa wrote:
nibs wrote:Have you ever experienced the cessation of all 'me-ness' and then its re-arising? One's notion of 'stress' may change if so. As you can already tell, I'm an Ayya Khema fan:
"The path moment doesn't have any thinking or feeling in it. It is not comparable to the meditative absorptions (jhana). Although it is based upon them because only the concentrated mind can enter into a path moment, it does not have the same qualities. the meditative absorptions have — in their initial stages — the ingredients of rapture, happiness and peacefulness. Later on, the mind experiences expansion, nothingness and a change of perception. The path moment does not contain any of these states of mind."
This is a mistaken understanding of the path. Supramundane path-consciousness is a supramundane jhāna which includes the presence of the jhāna factors. Visuddhimagga, Ch. 21:
  • According to governance by insight, the path arisen in a bare-insight worker, and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhāna attainment but who has not made the jhāna the basis for insight, and the path made to arise by comprehending unrelated fabrications after using the first jhāna as the basis for insight, are paths of the first jhāna only. In each case there are seven awakening factors, eight path factors, and five jhāna factors. For while their preliminary insight can be accompanied by happiness and it can be accompanied by equanimity, when their insight reaches the state of equanimity about fabrications at the time of emergence it is accompanied by happiness.
Ven. Ñāṇārāma, Seven Stages of Purification & the Insight Knowledges:
  • At whatever moment he attains the supramundane path, that path-consciousness comes to be reckoned as a jhāna in itself, since it has some affinity with the factors proper to jhānas, such as the first jhāna. What are known as transcendental meditations in Buddhism are these supramundane levels of concentration within the reach of the pure insight meditator.
This is in keeping with the Dhammasaṅgaṇī, where supramundane jhāna includes the jhāna factors and the five faculties and various other saṅkhāras necessary for the presence of right view and the other components of the noble path.

I know Nibs isn't a big fan of the VM, but I still root for Buddhaghosa, so I went and took a look at this passage in context, and it looks as if Nibs is right, there is some Abhidhamma stuff popping up there. Essentially, those writing the VM were trying to sort out three distinct theories describing how the path-consiousness could be different for different people. One of which comes out of the AbDm and confuses things by implying that there is no anicca-gate to path (I think it is only and implication and not a real assertion in the AbDm). So to smooth things out, the Buddhaghosa team writing the VM propose that no matter what you are cultivating prior to path, whichever jhana, insight knowledge, etc, you always experience the insight knowledge of "Equanimity of Formations" just before path and the factors in EQ are determined by what you were previously cultivating.If you were cultivating a particular jhana just prior, then those jhana factors will be present in EQ, and the description of the path moment will sound different coming from different people for this reason.

It all sounds pretty academic to me, but I can see the practicality of sorting this out when you are responsible for teaching hundreds of monks all practicing in somewhat different ways.

But still, the quote above is a pretty interesting take on things. The idea that the path moment itself is a kind of super-jhana is one that I'm not that familiar with, but has some merits.

One issue may be how we are using the term "path." I'm assuming that when you are talking about "path" you are not referring to the moment when one directly apprehends Nibbana - right? Because that is nothing on top of nothing and there really can't be any factors of anything in Nibbana. However, I think Nib is talking about a direct apprehension of Nibbana. Which might help distinguish why there is a disagreement...

Fascinating discussion folks.
Nyana
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Nyana »

nibs wrote:Yeh, not a Visuddhimagga fan these days. I'd rather go with the end of what is seen as 'stress' from personal experience than what Buddhaghosa wrote. As long as it leads to the complete dropping away of misery, I'm cool with it. Each to his/her own.
Sure, that's fine. However, when using terms such as "path moment" one is implicitly relying on the commentaries. There's no notion of a "path moment" in the suttas, and no one has ever seen a path "moment" (or any other kind of "moment" for that matter). It's a conceptual construct used to account for the realization of knowledge.
nibs
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by nibs »

Ñāṇa wrote:
nibs wrote:Yeh, not a Visuddhimagga fan these days. I'd rather go with the end of what is seen as 'stress' from personal experience than what Buddhaghosa wrote. As long as it leads to the complete dropping away of misery, I'm cool with it. Each to his/her own.
Sure, that's fine. However, when using terms such as "path moment" one is implicitly relying on the commentaries. There's no notion of a "path moment" in the suttas, and no one has ever seen a path "moment" (or any other kind of "moment" for that matter). It's a conceptual construct used to account for the realization of knowledge.
Hi, Ñana,

Sure, I'm ok with that too. I'm not a fan of the concept of 'path moment' either (although one can find things I've expressed that would say differently), but on a more personal level I think there are a variety of 'experiences' being labeled 'path moments' yet not leading to the dropping of fetters and massive behavioral changes one would expect (from reading the suttas) thus not agreeing with my current take on it all (sorry Ron). But if post-such 'moments' do make the mind easier to navigate, more malleable, pliant, luminous and the dropping away of all mental 'stress' a real possibility, then I'm all for it. The knowledge part I agree with too. There must be insight into certain elements for one's mind to change profoundly.

Thanks.

nibs
Last edited by nibs on Sun May 27, 2012 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

manas wrote: ... if one has had some time to prepare, there can be this voice inside saying, "stay calm man, it's not the end of the world! So the world isn't what you thought it was - so what? You're still here - and life still needs to be lived, whatever it's 'ultimate' nature. The floor might well be conditionally arisen, but it still needs sweeping!" :)

:anjali:

This is brilliant! This is when having good dhamma friends and a solid teacher can make a big difference - attitude is everything.
Nyana
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Nyana »

Ron Crouch wrote:I know Nibs isn't a big fan of the VM, but I still root for Buddhaghosa, so I went and took a look at this passage in context, and it looks as if Nibs is right, there is some Abhidhamma stuff popping up there.
Of course there is Abhidhamma stuff in there. The Vism. relies heavily upon the Abhidhammapiṭaka.
Ron Crouch wrote:Essentially, those writing the VM were trying to sort out three distinct theories describing how the path-consiousness could be different for different people.
Buddhaghosa is relying on the path structure found in the Dhammasaṅgaṇī and the Paṭisambhidāmagga.
Ron Crouch wrote:The idea that the path moment itself is a kind of super-jhana is one that I'm not that familiar with, but has some merits.
It's standard Theravāda exegesis.
Ron Crouch wrote:One issue may be how we are using the term "path." I'm assuming that when you are talking about "path" you are not referring to the moment when one directly apprehends Nibbana - right?
Actually, that is precisely what I'm referring to.
Ron Crouch wrote:Because that is nothing on top of nothing and there really can't be any factors of anything in Nibbana. However, I think Nib is talking about a direct apprehension of Nibbana. Which might help distinguish why there is a disagreement...
Nibbāna is probably one of the most misunderstood terms in contemporary Buddhism. The noble paths and fruitions are always cognitions arising with concomitant mental factors. Attaining a noble path entails the arising of these supramundane saṅkhāras and the non-arising (anuppāda), non-continuance (appavatta), cessation (nirodha), and extinguishment (nibbāna) of fetters, mental outflows, and underlying tendencies which are terminated by that particular path. And attaining the fruition of that path entails the full extinguishment (parinibbāna) of those same fetters, etc.

For example, when one attains the fruition of stream-entry then any saṅkhāras which would arise in the future for a worldling are completely terminated and cease forever. When one attains the fruition of a once-returner then any saṅkhāras which would arise in the future for a stream-entrant are completely terminated and cease forever. When one attains the fruition of a non-returner then any saṅkhāras which would arise in the future for a once-returner are completely terminated and cease forever. And finally, when one attains the arahant fruition then any saṅkhāras which would arise in the future for a non-returner are completely terminated and cease forever.

Why is this so? Because in each case the causes and conditions for future arising are eliminated with the fruition of each noble path. This is the whole point of conditioned arising (paṭiccasamuppāda) -- it occurs and ceases to occur due to specific conditionality (idappaccayatā). Phenomena arise according to specific conditionality:
  • When this is, that is.
    From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
And phenomena cease according to specific conditionality:
  • When this isn’t, that isn’t.
    From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
nibs
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by nibs »

Ñāṇa wrote:
Ron Crouch wrote:I know Nibs isn't a big fan of the VM, but I still root for Buddhaghosa, so I went and took a look at this passage in context, and it looks as if Nibs is right, there is some Abhidhamma stuff popping up there.
Of course there is Abhidhamma stuff in there. The Vism. relies heavily upon the Abhidhammapiṭaka.
Ron Crouch wrote:Essentially, those writing the VM were trying to sort out three distinct theories describing how the path-consiousness could be different for different people.
Buddhaghosa is relying on the path structure found in the Dhammasaṅgaṇī and the Paṭisambhidāmagga.
Ron Crouch wrote:The idea that the path moment itself is a kind of super-jhana is one that I'm not that familiar with, but has some merits.
It's standard Theravāda exegesis.
Ron Crouch wrote:One issue may be how we are using the term "path." I'm assuming that when you are talking about "path" you are not referring to the moment when one directly apprehends Nibbana - right?
Actually, that is precisely what I'm referring to.
Ron Crouch wrote:Because that is nothing on top of nothing and there really can't be any factors of anything in Nibbana. However, I think Nib is talking about a direct apprehension of Nibbana. Which might help distinguish why there is a disagreement...
Nibbāna is probably one of the most misunderstood terms in contemporary Buddhism. The noble paths and fruitions are always cognitions arising with concomitant mental factors. Attaining a noble path entails the arising of these supramundane saṅkhāras and the non-arising (anuppāda), non-continuance (appavatta), cessation (nirodha), and extinguishment (nibbāna) of fetters, mental outflows, and underlying tendencies which are terminated by that particular path. And attaining the fruition of that path entails the full extinguishment (parinibbāna) of those same fetters, etc.
[/list]
These days, I lean towards the notion of 'nibbana' as a conscious cognised absence of 'construing', fabrications, 'objects', 'subjects', seeing in the seen, etc. I am also familiar with the infamous cessation of the senses 'blip' but my opinion has changed on that. Though such 'moments' do make the mind more pliant and malleable than pre-'moment'. I think I can see what Ñana may be pointing to. More rumination though is needed on my part to jump on board.

Nibs
Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

Nana, you seem to be suggesting that one has cognitions in Nibbana -are you really saying that this is how it happens?
Nyana
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Nyana »

Ron Crouch wrote:Nana, you seem to be suggesting that one has cognitions in Nibbana -are you really saying that this is how it happens?
Well, there is no such thing as "in nibbāna." One has a cognition of nibbāna, i.e. a cognition of extinguishment. And cognitions always arise with concomitant mental factors (cetasikā). The Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha:
  • 1. The First Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with initial application, sustained application, joy, happiness, and one-pointedness,
    2. The Second Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with sustained application, joy, happiness, and one-pointedness,
    3. The Third Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with joy, happiness, and one-pointedness,
    4. The Fourth Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with happiness and one-pointedness,
    5. The Fifth Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with equanimity and one-pointedness.

    These are the five types of Sotāpatti Path-consciousness.

    So are the Sakadāgāmī Path-consciousness, Anāgāmī Path-consciousness, and Arahatta Path-consciousness, making exactly twenty classes of consciousness. Similarly there are twenty classes of Fruit-consciousness. Thus there are forty types of supramundane consciousness.
This accords with the basic path sequence as outlined in the suttas as follows: dissatisfaction (dukkha) → faith (saddhā) → gladness (pāmojja) → joy (pīti) → tranquility (passaddhi) → pleasure (sukha) → meditative composure (samādhi) → gnosis & vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) → disenchantment (nibbidā) → dispassion (virāga) → liberation (vimutti) → gnosis of elimination (khayeñāṇa).

This developmental path sequence is found in SN 12.23 (S ii 29) Upanisa Sutta. This same developmental sequence, or significant portions of it, is also presented in Vin i 294, D i 73, D i 182, D i 207, D i 214, D i 232, D i 250, D iii 241, D iii 279, D iii 288, M i 37, M i 283, S iv 78, S iv 351-8, S v 156, S v 398, A i 243, A iii 21, A iii 285, A v 1-6, A v 312, A v 315, A v 317, A v 329, A v 333.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ñāṇa wrote:This accords with the basic path sequence as outlined in the suttas as follows: dissatisfaction (dukkha) → faith (saddhā) → gladness (pāmojja) → joy (pīti) → tranquility (passaddhi) → pleasure (sukha) → meditative composure (samādhi) → gnosis & vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) → disenchantment (nibbidā) → dispassion (virāga) → liberation (vimutti) → gnosis of elimination (khayeñāṇa).
:goodpost:

As this is what is taught by the Buddha in the Suttas (kindly referenced in detail by Geoff in his post above) I think it shows good reason why a "dark night" event or sequence of an events ought not be retrofitted back into the Buddha's sequence as standard, nor claimed to be taught as the Buddha's teaching. There is nothing in this sequence (sometimes called 'transcendental dependent origination') that includes or accommodates (let alone necessitates) such things...

I for one would be interested to know how the Visuddhimagga path of insight-knowledges lines up with the four levels of aryan attainment noted in the suttas, and where the eradication of fetters associated with the four aryan attainments come to cease in the model of insight knowledges. Where does the Stream-winner fit into the equation, for example? Must one go all the way to the end of the insight-knowledges to attain Stream-entry? And if that is so, what is the path for the rest of the road to arahantship? etc.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Ñāṇa wrote: This accords with the basic path sequence as outlined in the suttas as follows: dissatisfaction (dukkha) → faith (saddhā) → gladness (pāmojja) → joy (pīti) → tranquility (passaddhi) → pleasure (sukha) → meditative composure (samādhi) → gnosis & vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) → disenchantment (nibbidā) → dispassion (virāga) → liberation (vimutti) → gnosis of elimination (khayeñāṇa).
When I feel the need to form a model of how insight arises this is where I look. Just remembering it helps me along the sequence at least to the fourth one every time.

:bow:
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Nyana »

retrofuturist wrote:I for one would be interested to know how the Visuddhimagga path of insight-knowledges lines up with the four levels of aryan attainment noted in the suttas, and where the eradication of fetters associated with the four aryan attainments come to cease in the model of insight knowledges. Where does the Stream-winner fit into the equation, for example? Must one go all the way to the end of the insight-knowledges to attain Stream-entry? And if that is so, what is the path for the rest of the road to arahantship? etc.
The Vism. developmental stages are a synthesis of MN 24 Rathavinīta Sutta, the Dhammasaṅgaṇī, and the Paṭisambhidāmagga Ñāṇakathā (along with some things from the Aṭṭhakathā and a few of Buddhagosa's own ideas). The noble paths arise within the stage of purification by knowledge and vision (ñāṇadassanavisuddhi) right after the knowledge of change of lineage (gotrabhuñāṇa). This is explained in Chapter 22 of the Vism.
retrofuturist wrote:Must one go all the way to the end of the insight-knowledges to attain Stream-entry?
Yes, pretty much.
retrofuturist wrote:And if that is so, what is the path for the rest of the road to arahantship? etc.
After the fruition of stream-entry if one wants to attain the next noble path s/he begins again with the insight knowledge of rise and fall and proceeds through to the knowledge of equanimity about fabrications, then again knowledge of change of lineage, attainment of the second noble path, etc.
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Ñāṇa wrote:This accords with the basic path sequence as outlined in the suttas as follows: dissatisfaction (dukkha) → faith (saddhā) → gladness (pāmojja) → joy (pīti) → tranquility (passaddhi) → pleasure (sukha) → meditative composure (samādhi) → gnosis & vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) → disenchantment (nibbidā) → dispassion (virāga) → liberation (vimutti) → gnosis of elimination (khayeñāṇa).
:goodpost:
As this is what is taught by the Buddha in the Suttas (kindly referenced in detail by Geoff in his post above) I think it shows good reason why a "dark night" event or sequence of an events ought not be retrofitted back into the Buddha's sequence as standard, nor claimed to be taught as the Buddha's teaching. There is nothing in this sequence (sometimes called 'transcendental dependent origination') that includes or accommodates (let alone necessitates) such things...
The progress of insight sequence is seen as an interpretation and clarification of the above sequence, and other suttas.
There are more details in this thread:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11701" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
in particular around the area of this post:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 01#p177835" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Geoff,

Thanks for the overview. One final question of clarification...
retrofuturist wrote:And if that is so, what is the path for the rest of the road to arahantship? etc.
Ñāṇa wrote:After the fruition of stream-entry if one wants to attain the next noble path s/he begins again with the insight knowledge of rise and fall and proceeds through to the knowledge of equanimity about fabrications, then again knowledge of change of lineage, attainment of the second noble path, etc.
What confuses me a bit here is that the nyāṇas are typically called "knowledges". If someone has to redo them from the beginning each time, to what extent can it be claimed that they actually "know" and have "knowledge" of the various insights? Surely they haven't forgotten the previously acquired "knowledge"? Why the need to demonstrate to oneself what one already has "known" to be true?

The way they're explained here sounds more like they may be better called "perceptions", "observations" or "experiences", if they really must be re-experienced and cultivated in order to proceed further.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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