the great vegetarian debate

[Khalil Bodhi]

Hi Jason,

I think it's great that you are contemplating the impact of your own actions. What's not so good is to worry about the actions of others. Lest we forget Dhammapada v. 50:

Let none find fault with others; let none see the omissions and commissions of others. But let one see one's own acts, done and undone.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .budd.html

Mettaya.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Jason,

the monks at the temple where i live sometimes drive a bmw 40 miles to get their noon meal from a family who donates to them, am i the only one who finds this a bit odd? monks driving? is this common? seems like a waste of natural resourses to me. seems like they should go on alms round in the neighborhood spreading the dhamma as apposed to this.

If they have to drive that far for a feed, then I suspect a local alms round might leave them either malnourished or shot.

Metta,
Retro.

[jason c]

dear cittisanto and dhamma wheel members,
i read your great vegetarian debate, it made me feel so sad. i don't think there is any point for me to talk of dairy. we are clearly at different places in our practices. honestly, and from my heart you all seem to have much attatchments to break. your eating habits seem very selfish. i think i will leave your discussion group at this time, as this is the only real issue i had confusion about. i wish you all the best of success in your practice. i think my ideas and opinions of morality may be offensive to a great number of you, and i do not wish to cause further pain and suffering. i may be back from time to time as my mind may change, thats what it does.

changing,changing,anicca,anicca
may you all be happy,
jason

[hanzze_]

Jason,
maybe that is useful to understand: Buddha Dharma and Food - consider food as path to liberation Take your time and put away prejudice as good as possible.

[Cittasanto]

dear cittisanto and dhamma wheel members,
i read your great vegetarian debate, it made me feel so sad. i don't think there is any point for me to talk of dairy. we are clearly at different places in our practices. honestly, and from my heart you all seem to have much attatchments to break. your eating habits seem very selfish. i think i will leave your discussion group at this time, as this is the only real issue i had confusion about. i wish you all the best of success in your practice. i think my ideas and opinions of morality may be offensive to a great number of you, and i do not wish to cause further pain and suffering. i may be back from time to time as my mind may change, thats what it does.

changing,changing,anicca,anicca
may you all be happy,
jason

I do not care what you eat and you do not know how members here eat.

[Reductor]

dear cittisanto and dhamma wheel members,
i read your great vegetarian debate, it made me feel so sad. i don't think there is any point for me to talk of dairy. we are clearly at different places in our practices. honestly, and from my heart you all seem to have much attatchments to break.

You read 1580 posts in 1 hour and 46 minutes? That's 15 posts per minute. How well did you grasp the arguments?

Don't worry about offending people with your morality, Jason, unless that morality mandates that you compel everyone to agree with you. If you have no such compulsion, then consider youself and your opinions welcome here on DW.

But of course, don't suppose that those that you disagree with have many attachments to break while you're practice rests safely on another level. That's hubris.

EDIT: grammar.

[Cittasanto]

[hanzze_]

Why? Because it is a group orientated hubris?

[Reductor]

Why? Because it is a group orientated hubris?

When Jason suggests that those who disagree with him are on a lower level of practice than he is, then he is excessively confident that his opinion is better one. This is his 'hubris', or 'excessive self-confidence' or 'arrogance'.

In all likely-hood he has not well understood the opinions of those he elevates himself above.

If you are instead suggesting that a group of posters in the Great Vegetarian Debate thread are suffering hubris, than I would agree. The question is, which group?

[hanzze_]

Ever thought of all?

There is just a arahant, free from dept out of actions and total worthy for food. Maybe there are some...

Actually that is the reason why we tend to seek alternative ways to lighten our dept. But there is just one... no more need (desire) for food.

[Reductor]

Ever thought of all?

Yes.

But context is everything, hanzze.

In the context of that thread we must consider the forum that it is on: a Theravada one. Then we must remember from where the Theravada school of thought takes its standard: the pali canon. Then we can look at those standards in the pali canon, compare them to the opinion expressed, and come to a conclusion whether or not that opinion is "over confident".

And when the standard is ambiguously defined, or non-existent, we'd all do well to shut up and respect each other as people, rather than trying to minimize one another for taking a different side.

My quip with Jason is that he's applying his own standard, or at least one not from the pali canon, to the posters on a Theravada forum, and then pronouncing them to be over attached, and thus inferior.

There is just a arahant, free from dept out of actions and total worthy for food. Maybe there are some...

Actually that is the reason why we tend to seek alternative ways to lighten our dept. But there is just one... no more need (desire) for food.

And I respect your desire to be debt free. Many people here are trying to do that too by eating vegan. And some of the people on the Great Vegetarian Debate thread are both vegan and unwilling to force others to be vegan.

Anyway, I'm

[hanzze_]

And some of the people on the Great Vegetarian Debate thread are both vegan and unwilling to force others to be vegan.

Also a good way to stay in the circle as well as to provide others the feeling that everything is good in that way. As long as we do not see the whole mass of suffering, we feel secure in our ways, we even make them more smooth, so we can stay a long time, feeling good and secure.

And we just speak about one mouth, mostly the smallest our days.

Maybe back to the context, context. Right view is our tool to see the reality in ever context. And from wrong view comes wrong intention (understanding was used in this topic for it).

[jason c]

i feel it would be unwise not to finish this discussion or at least reply to those who were kind enough to share their own personal opinions.
cittasanto wrote "i do not care what you eat and you do not know how members eat here" this statement is incorrect, reading parts of the great vegetarian debate members here shared their eating habits publicly, thereby giving me first hand knowledge of their eating habits. and although i don't personally get offended with the eating habits of others(i use to eat meat, maybe i will eat meat in the future.) how can i be offended with people who share the exact same views that i once held? i do however believe that this site was created with the intention of sharing the dhamma(truth) with those who want to hear it. each of us must ask ouselves, is there anger in me? is there hatred in me? is there ignorance in me? if we answer yes to this then it is our job as meditators(human beings) to probe into ourselves, find these roots of anger, hatred,and ignorance and cut them! eradicate them from our core being! having a wonderful website like this where we can share and discuss our deepest rooted questions and concerns is a blessing, and should be used wisely otherwise it becomes a habit, a posession, another attatchment to break in the future. the moderators have a difficult job indeed how to decipher the truth from ignorance and control touchy subjects like our eating habits. but these discussions must remain open always, for any members who wish to discuss or have questions about these issues as it pertains to their own practice.
reductor wrote: don't worry about offending people unless you compell everyone to agree with you. and i'm compiling here: your practice rests safely on another level (higher or superior)
i do worry about offending people, the practice of meditation is the only way to liberation, and i would be doing a great injustice to myself and others if my words and actions led people away from this practice. how can i compell everyone to agree with me, do i have this supreme power, you are each your own masters. also, i simply stated that we are at different places in our practice, to assume to be higher is egoic and is going in the opposite direction of liberation.
i understand this is a theravaden group, this is where the base of my practice lies. but do not hold these pali canon texts to close or you may become attatched. and you will be headed in the opposite direction.
SILA: to abstain from killing any being. do not kill animals and eat them
to abstain from stealing. do not steal baby calves from their mothers
to abstain from sexual misconduct do not keep cows perpetually pregnant for their milk supply it was meant for their babies
to abstain from wrong speech do not lie to yourself about these truths
to abstain from all intoxicants free yourself from these poisonous acts

this is where my personal practice lies, if this angers or upsets you then better you observe those sensations before replying otherwise we can have a chat.
metta
jason

[hanzze_]

Jason c,

Eating does not mean to kill. That is something that needs to be understood. But to desire something gives the way to harm. All living beings, where ever they are. Try to think a little deeper, otherwise it could be that you would see that your kind of food you have taken had harmed much more beings and much more lives.
They will blame you to be a killer and you just didn't know, you just didn't thought deeper.

Do not think that others are angry, maybe they just like to help you a little, maybe they had such amount of insight also and are just grown a little wiser. I am sure there is nobody angry, maybe some that they can not explain their personal problems but we need to grow by our self.

Jason, some times ago I was also angry about this "silly" people proclaiming just vegan or vegetarian food, sitting right there where forest is burned in front of my eyes and animals are killed incl. their habitats for the western food industry. But one day one does understand, that all this anger comes form ones own faults and ideas of right and wrong.
When you do not have a share on evil things, you would not be that touched. As told, you could be shocked a second time. Try to investigate more and try to understand why Buddha did not say, eating meat is a evil deed.

Ever tried to eat just what is freely given?

When you start to see that somebody ordering this food or that food, has the same desire for pleasure in it like you, you will develop compassion for both. Your self and the other and you will start to archive the freedom form desire and because you know, if you have attained it for your self, fist you are free of own faults and you are able to teach the eightfold path to others as well, to free them from the root problem of using others to maintain once own coming into being another time.

[Cittasanto]

You may wish to check the dates of those replies, it has been going since 2008!
like I said you do not know, because things change, you only know what was the case.
I also doubt that the view you once had is the same as all those who eat meat, I know of a number of reasons people can have.

you seam to have fixed ideas on what is and is not Dhamma, This site was created to explore the Dhamma of the Buddha as found in Theravada, not what we think is true, so please stay, talk about Dhamma if that is what you are interested in; but don't get a mixed bag of nuts expecting to only get walnuts. this is a discussion group and members will have a wide range of views based on different things.