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The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate - Page 13 - Dhamma Wheel

The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Dhammanando
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Dhammanando » Thu May 31, 2012 7:09 am


Nyana
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Nyana » Thu May 31, 2012 8:00 am


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mikenz66
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby mikenz66 » Thu May 31, 2012 8:18 am


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Nyana » Thu May 31, 2012 10:36 am


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mikenz66
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby mikenz66 » Thu May 31, 2012 8:06 pm

Hi Geoff,

I have no idea why you see analysis using the Buddha's categories as a labyrinth.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Nyana » Thu May 31, 2012 11:57 pm


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retrofuturist
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:32 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:10 am


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Sylvester » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:57 am


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Nyana » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:39 am


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Nyana » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:42 am


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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby Nyana » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:53 am


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mikenz66
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:18 am


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Son
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Re: What's up with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Postby Son » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:09 am

A seed sleeps in soil.
It's cold and alone, hopeless.
Until it blooms above.

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cooran
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby cooran » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:29 am

Which god?

With Metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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PadmaPhala
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby PadmaPhala » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:18 am

Sutra Pitaka is more... legit than the other pitakas.

Pāli Tripitaka sounds better... as per buddhist hybrid samskrita.

mogg
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby mogg » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:33 am

I take a common sense approach to this question. The Buddha's ministry lasted 45 years, he had plenty of time to teach the essentials to his disciples. If a teaching wasn't included in those 45 years then its not important to the path.

I take it on good authority from various Ajahns that the Abhidhamma is a later addition and not the 'word of the Buddha'. Thats good enough for me. There's 17000 odd suttas and only so much time.

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Kumara
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Abhidhamma Origins, Purpose & Limitations

Postby Kumara » Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:39 am

I thought some of you might be interested in this talk:
http://sasanarakkha.org/dhamma_mp3/vene ... ations.mp3
(probably faster downlaod) http://archive.org/download/AbhidhammaO ... ations.mp3
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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mikenz66
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:02 pm

Thanks Kumara,

Bhante Aggacitta visited us here a few years ago. He has an excellent knowledge of Sutta, Abhidhamma, and practice. I really appreciate his practical attitude towards ancient and modern interpretations of the Dhamma.

:anjali:
Mike

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flaneur9
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Ajahn Buddhadasa on Abhidhamma

Postby flaneur9 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:29 pm

would someone care to comment on buddhadasa's opinion of the abhidhama?

In a famous lecture in 1971 Buddhadasa condemned contemporary Abhidhamma studies in Thailand for overemphasizing the sacred and supernatural, for packaging themselves as “consumer goods”, and for leading their supporters into “delusion and addiction”

what's to be made of the following argument?

1. In the only canonical account of the first Buddhist council (Vinaya Cullavagga Ch.12 it is stated that the venerable Upāli recited Vinaya, then the venerable Ānanda recited the five nikāyas (i.e., the Suttantas), after which the council was brought to a close. Abhidhamma is mentioned not at all in the entire account (nor is it mentioned in the canonical account of the second council). The general consensus of Western scholars is that the traditional account of the first council is largely fiction; nevertheless, it does indicate that at the occasion of its composition (presumably some time before the third council) Abhidhamma philosophy was either unknown or considered to be unworthy of mention. Ven. Buddhaghosa in his commentary to the Dīgha Nikāya tried to rectify the omission by simply changing the details of the story, which is a rather unconvincing device. The standard Burmese explanation of the conspicuous absence of Abhidhamma in the oldest ecclesiastical histories is that it is included in the Khuddaka Nikāya of the Suttanta Pltaka, but this assertion receives no support from the ancient texts themselves. (The Burmese also consider Vinaya to be included in the Khuddaka Nikāya, thereby rendering the fifth Nikāya—“The Small Collection” or “Collection of the Small”—very much larger and more comprehensive than the entire remainder of the Canon and reducing the Buddhist scriptures to a single Piṭaka.)

2. The word “abhidhamma” is very seldom found in the Vinaya and Suttanta (according to one authority eleven times), and when it is found it is usually paired with the term “abhivinaya.” Since there is and never was an Abhivinaya Piṭaka the context implies that “abhidhamma” here means simply “about Dhamma,” not “higher Dhamma.” In the very few cases where the term clearly refers to the philosophy of the Abhidhamma Piṭaka it is found in relatively very late canonical exegesis of older texts—for example, the Vinaya Suttavibhaṅga and the Mahāniddesa.

3. Very many of the terms which play integral, central roles in Abhidhamma philosophy (cetasika, citta-vīthi, bhavaṅga, javana, kiriya-citta, rūpakalāpa, etc. etc.) are either entirely lacking in the Sutlanta or are found there rarely and in a radically different context. The elaborate doctrine of citta-vīthi, for example, which is essential to traditional abhidhammic psychology and is taught in even the most elementary of Abhidhamma courses, is entirely foreign to the first two Piṭakas (and, curiously, is mentioned only briefly and obscurely in the third). Abhidhamma philosophy is claimed by orthodox authorities to be the most profound and important part ofthe teachings ofthe Buddha; but there is not a single narrative episode in the Canon, believable or otherwise, which clearly indicates that he ever taught it to anyone; and furthermore, much of the supposed “highest teachings of Buddha” (e.g., the theory of rūpakalāpas) is non-canonical—not even to be found in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka itself.

4. Kathāvatthu, the fifth book of the Abhidhamma Piṭaka, deals exclusively with dogmatic controversies with schismatic sects of Buddhism that existed around the time of the third council (i.e., the mid-third century B.C.). Also, it is believed that the compiler of the work was a bhikkhu named Moggaliputtatissa, who according to ven. Buddhaghosa presided over the third council. Some fundamentalism claim that the Buddha, foreseeing the doctrinal disputes and schism: that would arise after his death, laid down the general outline of the Kathāvatthu, and more than two centuries later ven. Moggalīputtatissa merely elaborated upon it. Although this cannot be categorically disproved it is, needless to say, rather unlikely. (Incidentally, considering that one of the main purposes of the third council was to purge the Saṅgha of heretics and champion what one faction, presumably led by ven. Moggalīputtatissa, believed to be Right View, it may be assumed that the Canon was edited and infused with new material favoring the views of the prevailing faction.)

5. Among the many ancient schools of Buddhism there were at least two versions of the Abhidhamma or Abhidharma Piṭaka, one being of the Theravadins, another being of the Sarvastivadins. Both of these versions consist of seven books, but this is almost their only resemblance, and they obviously are not based upon a common precursor. Other sects possessed of an Abhidharma Piṭaka, including the Mahayanists, tended to modify or borrow outright the version of the Sarvastivadins; but many schools, particularly thou which diverged from the Theravada/Sarvastivada lineage prior to around the beginning of the third century B.C., had none. Now it would be absurd to suggest that all of the ancient schools of Buddhism that broke away from the Theravadin line were so foolish as to throw out an entire Piṭaka, which many Theravadins claim is the most profound and most important of the three, that the Sarvastivadins subsequently concocted another one from scratch, and that some of the other schools then adopted the counterfeit in place of the original. lt would be much more reasonable to assume that there simply was no Abhidhamma Piṭaka in the earliest days of Buddhism, the trend for composing such abstract, technical philosophy beginning in the Theravada/Sarvastivada lineage shortly before the occurrence of the schism that divided them. This one point is sufficient to convince most Buddhistic scholars in the West that Abhidhamma philosophy was never taught by the Buddha.


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