Dhammapada verse 279

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tiltbillings
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Dhammapada verse 279

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:59 pm

bodom wrote:I also enjoyed his Dhammapada translation:

The Dhammapada: Verses on the Way
http://www.amazon.com/The-Dhammapada-Ve ... 0679643079

:anjai:
Tell us what his translation of 279 is.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Paul Davy
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby Paul Davy » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:04 pm

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Tell us what his translation of 279 is.

Is that your Dhammapada litmus test? (Mine's 1-2)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

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tiltbillings
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:09 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Tell us what his translation of 279 is.

Is that your Dhammapada litmus test? (Mine's 1-2)

Metta,
Retro. :)
1 and 2, as well.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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bodom
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby bodom » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:16 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
bodom wrote:I also enjoyed his Dhammapada translation:

The Dhammapada: Verses on the Way
http://www.amazon.com/The-Dhammapada-Ve ... 0679643079

:anjai:
Tell us what his translation of 279 is.


Here you are tilt:

When through insight a person sees
all fabrications are nonsubstantial,
then in pain he turns away.
This is the path to purication.


:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo

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Paul Davy
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby Paul Davy » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:19 pm

Greetings,

Sounds like a "dark night" translation.

:rofl:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

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tiltbillings
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:22 pm

bodom wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
bodom wrote:I also enjoyed his Dhammapada translation:

The Dhammapada: Verses on the Way
http://www.amazon.com/The-Dhammapada-Ve ... 0679643079

:anjai:
Tell us what his translation of 279 is.


Here you are tilt:

When through insight a person sees
all fabrications are nonsubstantial,
then in pain he turns away.
This is the path to purication.


:anjali:
I have the book, and in reading that passage, I looked at at his commentary on that chapter, and there was othing oin it to clarify his translation of this passage. I shut the book. It does not sit on my shelf with my other Pali stuff.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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tiltbillings
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:24 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Sounds like a "dark night" translation.

:rofl:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Probably not.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby bodom » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:24 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Tell us what his translation of 279 is.

Is that your Dhammapada litmus test? (Mine's 1-2)

Metta,
Retro. :)
1 and 2, as well.


Verses 1 and 2 as well:

Preceded by mind
are phenomena,
led by mind,
formed by mind.
If with mind polluted
one speaks or acts,
then pain follows,
as a wheel follows
the draft ox's foot.

Preceded by mind
are phenomena,
led by mind,
formed by mind.
If with mind pure
one speaks or acts,
then ease follows,
as an ever present shadow.


:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo

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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby Paul Davy » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:30 pm

Greetings Bodom, all,

I thought his Dhp 1-2 were very good (possibly even the best I've read), but don't like the "in pain he turns away" aspect of Dhp 278, which is what I suggested sounded rather "dark night"-ish (i.e. seeing a glimpse of the truth causing pain). Compare with...

Buddharakkhita wrote:when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering

Thanissaro wrote:When you see with discernment... you grow disenchanted with stress.

Thanks for sharing - it goes to show the value of reviewing multiple translations.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:32 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Bodom, all,

I thought his Dhp 1-2 were very good (possibly even the best I've read), but don't like the "in pain he turns away" aspect of Dhp 278, which is what I suggested sounded rather "dark night"-ish (i.e. seeing a glimpse of the truth causing pain.
That is minor. The real problem is:


all fabrications are nonsubstantial,
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby Paul Davy » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:41 pm

Greetings,

Dhp 277-279 wrote:"Sabbe sankhara anicca" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

"Sabbe sankhara dukkha" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

"Sabbe sankhara anatta" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

Source: http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/ve ... ?verse=277

"All fabrications" sounds alright for "sabbe sankhara"... it's the non-substantial that looks needlessly interpretive to me.

(Apologies if this is going off-topic somewhat - perhaps a mod might like to split the topic at a suitable juncture?)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

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tiltbillings
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:06 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Dhp 277-279 wrote:"Sabbe sankhara anicca" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

"Sabbe sankhara dukkha" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

"Sabbe sankhara anatta" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

"All fabrications" sounds alright for "sabbe sankhara"... it's the non-substantial that looks needlessly interpretive to me.

(Apologies if this is going off-topic somewhat - perhaps a mod might like to split the topic at a suitable juncture?)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Sabba dhamma" is in all the Pali versions of the Dhp 279 I have ever seen.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:32 am

tiltbillings wrote:"Sabba dhamma" is in all the Pali versions of the Dhp 279 I have ever seen.

I just checked in my Pali version and I saw it as "sabba sankhara" as well. An online check reveals some having "sabba dhamma" and some having "sabba sankhara." I'm not sure what the discrepancy can be traced to?
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.

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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:17 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:"Sabba dhamma" is in all the Pali versions of the Dhp 279 I have ever seen.

I just checked in my Pali version and I saw it as "sabba sankhara" as well. An online check reveals some having "sabba dhamma" and some having "sabba sankhara." I'm not sure what the discrepancy can be traced to?
Well, the PTS version is sabbe dhamma, the commentary to Dhp 279 is sabbe dhamma, the Gandhari Dharmapada is sabba dhamma (sarvi dhama anatva), the CSCD Pali Canon version is sabbe dhamma.

Now, if we look here we find "sabba sankhara anatta":

http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/ve ... ?verse=277

But then we see: 'Verse 279: "All phenomena (dhammas) are without Self" . . . .' Oooops. I wonder if "sabba sankhara anatta" was a mistake that was never corrected and now it has a life of its own. One would think that if "sabba sankhara anatta" were an actual variant reading, it would get mentioned in the various scholarly books on the Dhammapada, but I have never seen it mentioned.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:00 am

Dhamma also in the Narada version:
http://www.metta.lk/english/Narada/20-Magga%20Vagga.htm

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby bodom » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:46 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Dhamma also in the Narada version:
http://www.metta.lk/english/Narada/20-Magga%20Vagga.htm

:anjali:
Mike


Also in John Ross Carters translation as well.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo

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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby Dhammanando » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:57 am

retrofuturist wrote:it's the non-substantial that looks needlessly interpretive to me.


I would say that this part is the translation's only redeeming feature. The rendering 'non-substantial' suggest that Wallis is among those few Pali translators who are alert to the semantic distinction between the adjective 'anatta' (as used here) and agglutinated predicative phrase 'anatta'. Most other translators get the two homonyms muddled and when encountering the adjective will translate it as they would the phrase (i.e., as "is/are not self").
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Re: Dhammapada verse 279

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:34 am

Thanks for that Bhante. Are you saying that in the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html we are dealing with the
agglutinated predicative phrase 'anatta'

and so the translation
"Bhikkhus, form is not-self.. (Rūpaṃ bhikkhave, anattā).

is OK, whereas in Dhp 279
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
'All phenomena are not-self': (Sabbe dhammā anattā'ti)

is dodgy, and you prefer the "insubstantial" translation?

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Dhammapada verse 279

Postby Paul Davy » Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:42 am

Greetings,

Thank you bhante, and thank you Mike for the good follow up question...

:popcorn:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:06 am

Dhammanando wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:it's the non-substantial that looks needlessly interpretive to me.


I would say that this part is the translation's only redeeming feature. The rendering 'non-substantial' suggest that Wallis is among those few Pali translators who are alert to the semantic distinction between the adjective 'anatta' (as used here) and agglutinated predicative phrase 'anatta'. Most other translators get the two homonyms muddled and when encountering the adjective will translate it as they would the phrase (i.e., as "is/are not self").
Always enjoy your Pali lessons.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12


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