Dhammapada verse 279

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Dhammapada verse 279

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:59 pm

bodom wrote:I also enjoyed his Dhammapada translation:

The Dhammapada: Verses on the Way
http://www.amazon.com/The-Dhammapada-Ve ... 0679643079

:anjai:
Tell us what his translation of 279 is.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:04 pm

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Tell us what his translation of 279 is.

Is that your Dhammapada litmus test? (Mine's 1-2)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:09 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Tell us what his translation of 279 is.

Is that your Dhammapada litmus test? (Mine's 1-2)

Metta,
Retro. :)
1 and 2, as well.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby bodom » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:16 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
bodom wrote:I also enjoyed his Dhammapada translation:

The Dhammapada: Verses on the Way
http://www.amazon.com/The-Dhammapada-Ve ... 0679643079

:anjai:
Tell us what his translation of 279 is.


Here you are tilt:

When through insight a person sees
all fabrications are nonsubstantial,
then in pain he turns away.
This is the path to purication.


:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:19 pm

Greetings,

Sounds like a "dark night" translation.

:rofl:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:22 pm

bodom wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
bodom wrote:I also enjoyed his Dhammapada translation:

The Dhammapada: Verses on the Way
http://www.amazon.com/The-Dhammapada-Ve ... 0679643079

:anjai:
Tell us what his translation of 279 is.


Here you are tilt:

When through insight a person sees
all fabrications are nonsubstantial,
then in pain he turns away.
This is the path to purication.


:anjali:
I have the book, and in reading that passage, I looked at at his commentary on that chapter, and there was othing oin it to clarify his translation of this passage. I shut the book. It does not sit on my shelf with my other Pali stuff.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:24 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Sounds like a "dark night" translation.

:rofl:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Probably not.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby bodom » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:24 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Tell us what his translation of 279 is.

Is that your Dhammapada litmus test? (Mine's 1-2)

Metta,
Retro. :)
1 and 2, as well.


Verses 1 and 2 as well:

Preceded by mind
are phenomena,
led by mind,
formed by mind.
If with mind polluted
one speaks or acts,
then pain follows,
as a wheel follows
the draft ox's foot.

Preceded by mind
are phenomena,
led by mind,
formed by mind.
If with mind pure
one speaks or acts,
then ease follows,
as an ever present shadow.


:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:30 pm

Greetings Bodom, all,

I thought his Dhp 1-2 were very good (possibly even the best I've read), but don't like the "in pain he turns away" aspect of Dhp 278, which is what I suggested sounded rather "dark night"-ish (i.e. seeing a glimpse of the truth causing pain). Compare with...

Buddharakkhita wrote:when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering

Thanissaro wrote:When you see with discernment... you grow disenchanted with stress.

Thanks for sharing - it goes to show the value of reviewing multiple translations.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:32 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Bodom, all,

I thought his Dhp 1-2 were very good (possibly even the best I've read), but don't like the "in pain he turns away" aspect of Dhp 278, which is what I suggested sounded rather "dark night"-ish (i.e. seeing a glimpse of the truth causing pain.
That is minor. The real problem is:


all fabrications are nonsubstantial,
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:41 pm

Greetings,

Dhp 277-279 wrote:"Sabbe sankhara anicca" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

"Sabbe sankhara dukkha" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

"Sabbe sankhara anatta" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

Source: http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/ve ... ?verse=277

"All fabrications" sounds alright for "sabbe sankhara"... it's the non-substantial that looks needlessly interpretive to me.

(Apologies if this is going off-topic somewhat - perhaps a mod might like to split the topic at a suitable juncture?)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:06 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Dhp 277-279 wrote:"Sabbe sankhara anicca" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

"Sabbe sankhara dukkha" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

"Sabbe sankhara anatta" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

"All fabrications" sounds alright for "sabbe sankhara"... it's the non-substantial that looks needlessly interpretive to me.

(Apologies if this is going off-topic somewhat - perhaps a mod might like to split the topic at a suitable juncture?)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Sabba dhamma" is in all the Pali versions of the Dhp 279 I have ever seen.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:32 am

tiltbillings wrote:"Sabba dhamma" is in all the Pali versions of the Dhp 279 I have ever seen.

I just checked in my Pali version and I saw it as "sabba sankhara" as well. An online check reveals some having "sabba dhamma" and some having "sabba sankhara." I'm not sure what the discrepancy can be traced to?
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:17 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:"Sabba dhamma" is in all the Pali versions of the Dhp 279 I have ever seen.

I just checked in my Pali version and I saw it as "sabba sankhara" as well. An online check reveals some having "sabba dhamma" and some having "sabba sankhara." I'm not sure what the discrepancy can be traced to?
Well, the PTS version is sabbe dhamma, the commentary to Dhp 279 is sabbe dhamma, the Gandhari Dharmapada is sabba dhamma (sarvi dhama anatva), the CSCD Pali Canon version is sabbe dhamma.

Now, if we look here we find "sabba sankhara anatta":

http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/ve ... ?verse=277

But then we see: 'Verse 279: "All phenomena (dhammas) are without Self" . . . .' Oooops. I wonder if "sabba sankhara anatta" was a mistake that was never corrected and now it has a life of its own. One would think that if "sabba sankhara anatta" were an actual variant reading, it would get mentioned in the various scholarly books on the Dhammapada, but I have never seen it mentioned.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:00 am

Dhamma also in the Narada version:
http://www.metta.lk/english/Narada/20-Magga%20Vagga.htm

:anjali:
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby bodom » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:46 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Dhamma also in the Narada version:
http://www.metta.lk/english/Narada/20-Magga%20Vagga.htm

:anjali:
Mike


Also in John Ross Carters translation as well.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby Dhammanando » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:57 am

retrofuturist wrote:it's the non-substantial that looks needlessly interpretive to me.


I would say that this part is the translation's only redeeming feature. The rendering 'non-substantial' suggest that Wallis is among those few Pali translators who are alert to the semantic distinction between the adjective 'anatta' (as used here) and agglutinated predicative phrase 'anatta'. Most other translators get the two homonyms muddled and when encountering the adjective will translate it as they would the phrase (i.e., as "is/are not self").
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
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Re: Dhammapada verse 279

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:34 am

Thanks for that Bhante. Are you saying that in the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html we are dealing with the
agglutinated predicative phrase 'anatta'

and so the translation
"Bhikkhus, form is not-self.. (Rūpaṃ bhikkhave, anattā).

is OK, whereas in Dhp 279
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
'All phenomena are not-self': (Sabbe dhammā anattā'ti)

is dodgy, and you prefer the "insubstantial" translation?

:anjali:
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Re: Dhammapada verse 279

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:42 am

Greetings,

Thank you bhante, and thank you Mike for the good follow up question...

:popcorn:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: What Dhamma Book are you reading right now?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:06 am

Dhammanando wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:it's the non-substantial that looks needlessly interpretive to me.


I would say that this part is the translation's only redeeming feature. The rendering 'non-substantial' suggest that Wallis is among those few Pali translators who are alert to the semantic distinction between the adjective 'anatta' (as used here) and agglutinated predicative phrase 'anatta'. Most other translators get the two homonyms muddled and when encountering the adjective will translate it as they would the phrase (i.e., as "is/are not self").
Always enjoy your Pali lessons.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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