Dhammapada verse 279

[tiltbillings]

I also enjoyed his Dhammapada translation:

The Dhammapada: Verses on the Way
http://www.amazon.com/The-Dhammapada-Ve ... 0679643079

:anjai:

Tell us what his translation of 279 is.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Tilt,

Tell us what his translation of 279 is.

Is that your Dhammapada litmus test? (Mine's 1-2)

Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

Greetings Tilt,

Tell us what his translation of 279 is.

Is that your Dhammapada litmus test? (Mine's 1-2)

Metta,
Retro.

1 and 2, as well.

[bodom]

I also enjoyed his Dhammapada translation:

The Dhammapada: Verses on the Way
http://www.amazon.com/The-Dhammapada-Ve ... 0679643079

:anjai:

Tell us what his translation of 279 is.

Here you are tilt:

When through insight a person sees
all fabrications are nonsubstantial,
then in pain he turns away.
This is the path to purication.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Sounds like a "dark night" translation.



Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

I also enjoyed his Dhammapada translation:

The Dhammapada: Verses on the Way
http://www.amazon.com/The-Dhammapada-Ve ... 0679643079

:anjai:

Tell us what his translation of 279 is.

Here you are tilt:

When through insight a person sees
all fabrications are nonsubstantial,
then in pain he turns away.
This is the path to purication.

I have the book, and in reading that passage, I looked at at his commentary on that chapter, and there was othing oin it to clarify his translation of this passage. I shut the book. It does not sit on my shelf with my other Pali stuff.

[tiltbillings]

Greetings,

Sounds like a "dark night" translation.



Metta,
Retro.

Probably not.

[bodom]

Greetings Tilt,

Tell us what his translation of 279 is.

Is that your Dhammapada litmus test? (Mine's 1-2)

Metta,
Retro.

1 and 2, as well.

Verses 1 and 2 as well:

Preceded by mind
are phenomena,
led by mind,
formed by mind.
If with mind polluted
one speaks or acts,
then pain follows,
as a wheel follows
the draft ox's foot.

Preceded by mind
are phenomena,
led by mind,
formed by mind.
If with mind pure
one speaks or acts,
then ease follows,
as an ever present shadow.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Bodom, all,

I thought his Dhp 1-2 were very good (possibly even the best I've read), but don't like the "in pain he turns away" aspect of Dhp 278, which is what I suggested sounded rather "dark night"-ish (i.e. seeing a glimpse of the truth causing pain). Compare with...

when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering

When you see with discernment... you grow disenchanted with stress.

Thanks for sharing - it goes to show the value of reviewing multiple translations.

Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

Greetings Bodom, all,

I thought his Dhp 1-2 were very good (possibly even the best I've read), but don't like the "in pain he turns away" aspect of Dhp 278, which is what I suggested sounded rather "dark night"-ish (i.e. seeing a glimpse of the truth causing pain.

That is minor. The real problem is:


all fabrications are nonsubstantial,

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

"Sabbe sankhara anicca" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

"Sabbe sankhara dukkha" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

"Sabbe sankhara anatta" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

Source: http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/ve ... ?verse=277

"All fabrications" sounds alright for "sabbe sankhara"... it's the non-substantial that looks needlessly interpretive to me.

(Apologies if this is going off-topic somewhat - perhaps a mod might like to split the topic at a suitable juncture?)

Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

Greetings,

"Sabbe sankhara anicca" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

"Sabbe sankhara dukkha" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

"Sabbe sankhara anatta" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

"All fabrications" sounds alright for "sabbe sankhara"... it's the non-substantial that looks needlessly interpretive to me.

(Apologies if this is going off-topic somewhat - perhaps a mod might like to split the topic at a suitable juncture?)

Metta,
Retro.

"Sabba dhamma" is in all the Pali versions of the Dhp 279 I have ever seen.

[LonesomeYogurt]

"Sabba dhamma" is in all the Pali versions of the Dhp 279 I have ever seen.

I just checked in my Pali version and I saw it as "sabba sankhara" as well. An online check reveals some having "sabba dhamma" and some having "sabba sankhara." I'm not sure what the discrepancy can be traced to?

[tiltbillings]

"Sabba dhamma" is in all the Pali versions of the Dhp 279 I have ever seen.

I just checked in my Pali version and I saw it as "sabba sankhara" as well. An online check reveals some having "sabba dhamma" and some having "sabba sankhara." I'm not sure what the discrepancy can be traced to?

Well, the PTS version is sabbe dhamma, the commentary to Dhp 279 is sabbe dhamma, the Gandhari Dharmapada is sabba dhamma (sarvi dhama anatva), the CSCD Pali Canon version is sabbe dhamma.

Now, if we look here we find "sabba sankhara anatta":

http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/ve ... ?verse=277

But then we see: 'Verse 279: "All phenomena (dhammas) are without Self" . . . .' Oooops. I wonder if "sabba sankhara anatta" was a mistake that was never corrected and now it has a life of its own. One would think that if "sabba sankhara anatta" were an actual variant reading, it would get mentioned in the various scholarly books on the Dhammapada, but I have never seen it mentioned.

[mikenz66]

Dhamma also in the Narada version:
http://www.metta.lk/english/Narada/20-Magga%20Vagga.htm


Mike

[bodom]

Dhamma also in the Narada version:
http://www.metta.lk/english/Narada/20-Magga%20Vagga.htm


Mike

Also in John Ross Carters translation as well.

[Dhammanando]

it's the non-substantial that looks needlessly interpretive to me.

I would say that this part is the translation's only redeeming feature. The rendering 'non-substantial' suggest that Wallis is among those few Pali translators who are alert to the semantic distinction between the adjective 'anatta' (as used here) and agglutinated predicative phrase 'anatta'. Most other translators get the two homonyms muddled and when encountering the adjective will translate it as they would the phrase (i.e., as "is/are not self").

[mikenz66]

Thanks for that Bhante. Are you saying that in the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html we are dealing with the

agglutinated predicative phrase 'anatta'

and so the translation

"Bhikkhus, form is not-self.. (Rūpaṃ bhikkhave, anattā).

is OK, whereas in Dhp 279
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

'All phenomena are not-self': (Sabbe dhammā anattā'ti)

is dodgy, and you prefer the "insubstantial" translation?


Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Thank you bhante, and thank you Mike for the good follow up question...



Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

it's the non-substantial that looks needlessly interpretive to me.

I would say that this part is the translation's only redeeming feature. The rendering 'non-substantial' suggest that Wallis is among those few Pali translators who are alert to the semantic distinction between the adjective 'anatta' (as used here) and agglutinated predicative phrase 'anatta'. Most other translators get the two homonyms muddled and when encountering the adjective will translate it as they would the phrase (i.e., as "is/are not self").

Always enjoy your Pali lessons.