Samatha and Vipassana question

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Samatha and Vipassana question

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

RatherSkeptic wrote: The only difference seems to be that in Samatha, you never really leave your primary object of meditation, while in Vipassana, you always select the distractions as the new meditation objects until they disappear. So actually, according to Gunaratana, the difference is just about how much concentration you're putting into the distractions.

Or isn't it?
Yeah, basically haha. In samatha, you keep focus on the object of meditation ceaselessly until you can never leave it or you experience "one-pointedness." Vipassana is more active and mobile, where you direct concentration to different things as they arise. If you're trying to reach Jhana, you might feel a scratch on your back and move to it, but you just say "not breath" and go back immediately once you realize you've left. In vipassana, you examine that feeling mindfully and with equanimity.

In reality, those who do vipassana develop a huge amount of tranquility, and those who do samatha develop a huge amount of insight. The division is more conceptual than actual.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
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eternityinmind
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Re: Samatha and Vipassana question

Post by eternityinmind »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond by Ajahn Brahm is all about Jhana practice, as is Beyond Mindfulness in Plain English by Gunaratana. Both are great resources for deeper meditation states.
Thanks! A while ago I started reading Mindfulness in Plain English,but didn't finish it.When I have time I will start reading it again.After all it is a classic hehe :reading:
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Re: Samatha and Vipassana question

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
eternityinmind wrote::namaste: I am a little bit confused about the difference between samatha and vipassana meditation. How the two relate to each other? Can and should I combine them? How exactly? Any tips appreciated. :)
A response from Ven. Huifeng to a similar question over at Dharma Wheel...
Well, in modern English language Buddhist usage, the term in Pali "vipassana" largely refers to a couple of streams of modern Theravadin meditation that largely derive from some doctrinal explanations from Burma / Myanmar in the last century or so.

However, the term "vipassana" (in Pali), and "vipasyana" (in Skt), are not confined to Theravada, and have always had a strong usage in almost all forms of Buddhism. It's paired with "samatha", and the two are "yoked together" to form the basis of Buddhist meditation as a general whole. Usually samatha comes first.

Samatha, from the root "sam" (to pacify), means calming, pacification, stilling, etc. and is roughly equivalent to samadhi "concentration".
Vipasyana, from the root "pas" (to see), insight, special seeing, observation, etc. and is roughly equivalent to prajna "knowledge".

Now, because almost every Buddhist school indicates that some sort of wisdom or insight is needed to become liberated, they all have some equivalent of vipasyana. They may not use this term, however, but the meaning is a commonality.

~~ Huifeng
Source: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 16#p103458" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
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black hole
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Re: Samatha and Vipassana question

Post by black hole »

Samatha leads first to a state of mental calm and peaceful mind leads to a feeling of bliss, physically and mentally, which is growing by deepening samatha. It can also be accompanied by visions: color, waves, bright spots or circles of light, or different sensations. After this stage of bliss and visions, we feel a clarity of mind, sometimes great clarity. Equanimity allows then obtaining deeper concentration.
I think some practitioners get the certainty that this is an important experience, a "view" but I do not agree because it is tied to reality in different consciousness. The fact is that there is a source of confusion that can lead to a wrong view and we can fall back in fine in a system attachment / repulsion. The certainty of being in sight lead to disregard any other experience, to push the thoughts, feelings, sensations, mental formations as if they were unsuitable, so it's a kind of aversion.
On second thought, we got there at the very begining of vipassana : w got the necessary discernment. But we refuse to enter: we fall into the attachment / aversion. At the same time and to have lived it, I think it's a negative experience that brings many because aversion or attachment consciously experienced are an indication that one is at the very beginning of a new ability to distinguish what appears and to accept or decline it. This is a sign that we must regroup to place our mind in preparation for vipassana. There is a subtle balance between samatha and vipassana.
At this point, we realize that the conclusions - early - on clearly felt during samatha were wrong: it is not emptiness. Sin of pride ... This is not the nature of mind that we approached. The water surface was only a little calmer and we can begin to see what's at the bottom.
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Re: Samatha and Vipassana question

Post by Spiny Norman »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:In reality, those who do vipassana develop a huge amount of tranquility, and those who do samatha develop a huge amount of insight. The division is more conceptual than actual.
I've been thinking the same myself - 2 sides of the same coin?
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santa100
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Re: Samatha and Vipassana question

Post by santa100 »

Another analogy is the burning candle. The light is fickle when the candle is shaky. When the candle sits perfectly still, you'll get much better brightness. Stillness stands for samatha(concentration, one-pointedness) and brightness stands for vipassana(insight into the impermanent, non-self, and unsatisfatory nature of all conditioned phenomena)..
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Re: Samatha and Vipassana question

Post by daverupa »

A Sutta metaphor is of vipassana and samatha as hands which wash each other. Note that at the same instant, one hand is washing the other depending on how you want to frame it, but both hands are active.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Samatha and Vipassana question

Post by Spiny Norman »

So is the distinction actually about the method we use - the direction from which we approach?
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eternityinmind
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Re: Samatha and Vipassana question

Post by eternityinmind »

santa100 wrote:Another analogy is the burning candle. The light is fickle when the candle is shaky. When the candle sits perfectly still, you'll get much better brightness. Stillness stands for samatha(concentration, one-pointedness) and brightness stands for vipassana(insight into the impermanent, non-self, and unsatisfatory nature of all conditioned phenomena)..
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Re: Samatha and Vipassana question

Post by daverupa »

porpoise wrote:So is the distinction actually about the method we use - the direction from which we approach?
I don't think it's very useful to parse whether one is "doing" one or the other; correct bhavana is both at once. For example, anapanasati is not described as either one or the other method - it develops both in tandem.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Samatha and Vipassana question

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote:
porpoise wrote:So is the distinction actually about the method we use - the direction from which we approach?
I don't think it's very useful to parse whether one is "doing" one or the other; correct bhavana is both at once. For example, anapanasati is not described as either one or the other method - it develops both in tandem.
The commentaries I've read on anapanasati suggest it's insight preceded by tranquillity, rather than both in tandem. Though it seems that a variety of approaches is recognised in the suttas:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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daverupa
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Re: Samatha and Vipassana question

Post by daverupa »

porpoise wrote:The commentaries I've read on anapanasati suggest it's insight preceded by tranquillity, rather than both in tandem. Though it seems that a variety of approaches is recognised in the suttas:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yes, that's an interesting Sutta in this respect. It is helpfully paired with AN 4.94:
"There is the case of the individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. And then there is the case of the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment."

"The individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment and ask him...
Also of note is AN 2.29:
"These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? samatha & vipassana.

"When samatha is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned.

"When vipassana is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."
I think it's possible for one person to incline one way and another person to incline another way given the same particular bhavana, but anyone who notices one or another getting more attention in their practice ought to correct that - separate samatha & vipassana practices are foreign to the Sutta milieu; they are a swift pair of messengers running together, not playing leapfrog. When washing ones hands, it isn't that the right hand gets clean first and then the left hand.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Samatha and Vipassana question

Post by black hole »

To be honest, I do not think that meditation is samatha or vipassana. It is both, in varying proportions throughout the session. Now, you can only choose the path of jhanas that passes through the development of concentration but it seems risky to engage immediately in vipassana. Let me explain.
After a few tens of minutes of let's say samatha to simplify things - you can see the thoughts rising, as if they were separated from the mind, without repeling them or attaching to it. This is a very traditional experience. The thoughts arise and it is natural, it results in different consciousness but what is new is that they do not bother us. Because of the mental calm that has settled we don't identify them: the clouds pass across the sky without interfering in the least. Ajahn Chah spoke of still waters and the water flowing to talk about this state. It is from there, when a certain equanimity is installed, that we can "see" and understand without being affected, little by little, slowly but evrey time more deeply, the reality of phenomena.
However, if one starts directly vipassana without this indispensable preliminary step of calm and equanimity, we continue to stick to the thought and fall into an exercise of discourse analysis that has not much to do with insight. In other words, we try to restore some rightness of view by using this ordinary mind that his is not right.
For my part, I think it is beter to begin by practicing samatha. And as I said above, vipassana just comes and we realize it easily because at some point, falling into the trap of attachment, we tend to push away the thoughts that inevitably rise. This indicatites we got a new faculty of discrimination and a potential energy is available. Unfortunately we use this energy to push the thoughts when we could use it to see the true nature of phenomena. Now consider well this last point. On the basis of equanimity and energy we get vipassana and you will notice that these are also the conditions that must meet to obtain the concentration!
Therefore, we can say that somehow, well led vipassana strengthens concentration
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Re: Samatha and Vipassana question

Post by Aleksandra »

Hello eternityinmind,
Here are couple of links which you mind helpful:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/sot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;āpanna/pemasiri-thera-about-meditation-what-why-how/406318106059242
https://www.facebook.com/notes/sot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;āpanna/in-this-fathom-long-body/445109635513422

These are couple of Dhamma talks by Ven. Pemasiri Thera, Sri Lankan meditation teacher.
There are several other texts on the "Sotapanna" page which you may find interesting and helpful. Ven. Pemasiri is very skilled and reliable teacher.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;āpanna/403694482988271?ref=tn_tnmn


We may all give you different advice and different points of view. I think it is important that you try to find your own way, the way you are comfortable with.
When I was trying to learn to meditate on my own, I also started reading couple of books about meditation, including the book of Ajahn Brahm, but I didn't find them helpful. Even if I went to read them now, I would still not find them helpful. The book that in my opinion is most reliable out of those kind of books is "The Heart of Buddhist Meditation" by Ven. Nyanaponika.

The problem with reading the books is that a beginner can follow them to a degree, but then reading the pages about something that one has not yet experienced is useless. One only reads all those terms and experiences, and when they don't happen in one's meditation, one may start to think that something is going wrong, that meditation is not successful and so on.

There are many meditators out there who are sitting and thinking "is what I am experiencing now is samatha, or vipassana, or jhana or this or that..." and this then ends up not being meditation but sitting and thinking.

From my personal experience - don't worry about 'samatha', 'vipassana' or any names, just sit down, do what you do, watch your breath the best you can(or whatever object you are using.) Don't worry about jhanas and things like that either. If your practice is good from the start, it will gradually and automatically develop. Try not to have any expectations, not even about the length of time you are sitting. Keep it simple.

Also, keep the sila the best you can, study and try to adhere to Eightfold Noble Path. Those things are fundamentals for the meditative development.
Read the original scriptures. Although you may come across some you don't understand, don't worry, you will still gain confidence, faith or inspiration from them and in time, as your meditation develops, your understanding of it all will develop as well.
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Re: Samatha and Vipassana question

Post by Spiny Norman »

santa100 wrote:Another analogy is the burning candle. The light is fickle when the candle is shaky. When the candle sits perfectly still, you'll get much better brightness. Stillness stands for samatha(concentration, one-pointedness) and brightness stands for vipassana(insight into the impermanent, non-self, and unsatisfatory nature of all conditioned phenomena)..
The image that often comes to my mind is being at sea in a small boat. When the sea is rough there is the sense of being tossed about and not being able to see much above the waves. Then the sea begins to calm and you can see above the waves, and eventually the horizon becomes visible.
Well, something like that.... ;)
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