SN 35.151 A Student

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SN 35.151 A Student

Postby Hanzze » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:13 am

As "views of radical acceptance, radical rejection, and any combination of the two" in an interaction has always to do with "teaching and taught" "giving and taking" I thought this sutta might be useful in addition (as it is a appearance even having joined the Sangha):

Antevàsi Pupil

At one time the Blessed One was living in Devadaha, in a hamlet of the Sakyas.

The Blessed One addressed the monks from there:

"Monks, the holy life is lived without a pupil and without a teacher.

Monks, with [being] a pupil and with [having] a teacher the monk is unpleasant does not have a light living. Without [being] a pupil and without [having] a teacher the monk is pleasant has a light living

"Monks, how is the monk, with [being] a pupil and with [having] a teacher unpleasant, does not have a light living?

"Here, monks, to the monk seeing a form, evil demerit thoughts arise recalling his bonds and thoughts. Those evil thoughts live in him raining evil demerit. Therefore it is said he is with [being] a pupil. Those evil demerit thoughts assail him therefore it is said, with [having] a teacher.

"Again, monks, to the monk hearing a sound rescenting a scent, evil demerit thoughts arise recalling his bonds and thoughts. Those evil thoughts live in him raining evil demerit. Therefore it is said he is with [being] a pupil. Those evil demerit thoughts assail him therefore it is said, with a [having] teacher.

"Again, monks, to the monk tasting a savory recognizing a touch evil demerit thoughts arise recalling his bonds and thoughts. Those evil thoughts live in him raining evil demerit. Therefore it is said he is with [being] a pupil. Those evil demerit thoughts assail him therefore it is said, with a [having] teacher.

"Again, monks, to the monk cognizing an idea, evil demerit thoughts arise recalling his bonds and thoughts. Those evil thoughts live in him raining evil demerit. Therefore it is said he is with [being] a pupil. Those evil demerit thoughts assail him therefore it is said, with a [having] teacher.

"Therefore, monks, the monk with [being] a pupil and with [having] a teacher is unpleasant, does not have a light living.

"Monks, how is the monk, without [being] a pupil and without [having] a teacher pleasant, have a light living?

"Here, monks to the monk seeing a form, evil demerit thoughts do not arise recalling his bonds and thoughts. Evil thoughts do not live in him raining evil demerit. Therefore it is said he is without [being] a pupil. Evil demerit thoughts do not assail him therefore it is said, without [having] a teacher.

"Again, monks, to the monk hearing a sound rescenting a scent retasting a savory recognizing a touch evil demerit thoughts do not arise recalling his bonds and thoughts. Evil thoughts do not live in him raining evil demerit. Therefore it is said he is without [being] a pupil. Evil demerit thoughts do not assail him therefore it is said, without [having] a teacher.

"Again, monks, to the monk cognizing an idea evil demerit thoughts do not arise recalling his bonds and thoughts. Evil thoughts do not live in him raining evil demerit. Therefore it is said he is without [being] a pupil. Evil demerit thoughts do not assail him therefore it is said, without [having] a teacher.

"Therefore monks, the monk, without [being] a pupil and without [having] a teacher is pleasant, has a light living. Monks, to this is said living the holy life without [being] a pupil and without [having] a teacher.

"Monks, with [being] a pupil and with [having] a teacher the monk is unpleasant does not have a light living. Without [being] a pupil and without [having] a teacher the monk is pleasant has a light living.

(* [...] are personal additions and not found in the original translation)

If it goes beyond the intended frame the topic should be, please see it as delete able. If the focus is vedana, than it might be confusing, if the focus in on "giving and taking" as well as using it just to clean the exhaust rather then to use them to close them, I guess this sutta is useful in addition.

"how to abandon doctrinaire views of radical acceptance, radical rejection, and any combination of the two"
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: MN 74: Dighanaka Sutta — To LongNails

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:40 am

Hi Hanzze,

Not sure what message you are getting from SN 35.151 (A Student), but here is Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
“Bhikkhus, this holy life is lived without students and without a teacher.[*] A bhikkhu who has students and a teacher dwells in suffering, not in comfort. A bhikkhu who has no students and no teacher dwells happily, in comfort.

    * Anantevāsikam idaṃ bhikkhave brahmacariyaṃ vussati anācariyakaṃ. This is a riddle which turns upon two puns difficult to replicate in English. A “student” (antev̄s̄) is literally “one who dwells within,” and thus (as the text explains below) one for whom defilements do not dwell within (na antovasanti) is said to be “without students.” The word “teacher” (̄cariya) is here playfully connected with the verb “to assail” (samud̄carati); thus one unassailed by defilements is said to be “without a teacher.” Spk glosses anantevāsikaṃ with anto vasanakilesavirahitạm (“devoid of defilements dwelling within”), and anācariyakaṃ with ā̄caraṇakilesavirahitạm (“devoid of the ‘assailing’ defilements”).

The sutta continues:
“And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu who has students and a teacher dwell in suffering, not in comfort? Here, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu has seen a form with the eye, there arise in him evil unwholesome states, memories and intentions connected with the fetters. They dwell within him. Since those evil unwholesome states dwell within him, he is called ‘one who has students.’ They assail him. Since evil unwholesome states assail him, he is called ‘one who has a teacher.’
...
“And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu who has no students and no teacher dwell happily, in comfort? Here, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu has seen a form with the eye, there do not arise in him evil unwholesome states, memories and intentions connected with the fetters. They do not dwell within him. Since those evil unwholesome states do not dwell within him, he is called ‘one who has no students.’ They do not assail him. Since evil unwholesome states do not assail him, he is called ‘one who has no teacher.’
...
“It is in this way, bhikkhus, that a bhikkhu who has no students and no teacher dwells happily, in comfort.

“Bhikkhus, this holy life is lived without students and without a teacher. [138] A bhikkhu who has students and a teacher dwells in suffering, not in comfort. A bhikkhu who has no students and no teacher dwells happily, in comfort.”

:anjali:
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Re: MN 74: Dighanaka Sutta — To LongNails

Postby cooran » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:45 am

Hello Mike, Hanzze,

Can we stick to the Study Group method of only discussing the Sutta in its various versions which Mike posts and names in the Subject line? It will get too confusing and easily side-tracked otherwise if we bring in other suttas.

with metta
Chris
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---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: MN 74: Dighanaka Sutta — To LongNails

Postby Hanzze » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:56 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Hanzze,

Not sure what message you are getting from SN 35.151 (A Student), but here is Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:

Thanks for sharing, yes it catches the same point (from my view *smile*)

cooran wrote:Hello Mike, Hanzze,

Can we stick to the Study Group method of only discussing the Sutta in its various versions which Mike posts and names in the Subject line? It will get too confusing and easily side-tracked otherwise if we bring in other suttas.

with metta
Chris

That was, what I am not clear about. Is it just a literary study (juggling of word - struggle of doctrinaire views of radical acceptance, radical rejection, and any combination of the two.) or try to getting the message (going beyond the words - A discussion of how to abandon doctrinaire views of radical acceptance, radical rejection, and any combination of the two).
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: SN 35.151 A Student

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:01 am

I've no idea what you mean but it is clear from Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanation of the Pali that the sutta should not be read as "Don't have a teacher". :tongue:

I wonder if it is this pun that teachers like Ajahn Chah was referring to when he told his students that they had to learn from "Ajahn Mosquito" and so on...

:anjali:
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Re: SN 35.151 A Student

Postby Hanzze » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:07 am

Seems to be clear for me now. *smile* "(struggle of) doctrinaire views of radical acceptance, radical rejection, and any combination of the two"

So not so much my field, I find de-preception more useful and I guess my English skills are much to weak for it.

...that the sutta should not be read as "Don't have a teacher"... that's the problem with perceptions, one layer after the other (but not from inside to outside).

The problem with being a teacher or a student is that we easy forget that there are actually two teacher who have to come together "the one who gives the way out (way out of suffering)" and "the one who shows you where you are (suffering)". Whether we reject one of them, we do not face the whole teacher, but just our defilement. When for example "Ajahn Mosquito" is teaching we don't like to be his student but rather like teach him a lesson according to our defilement. The mad teacher and the good teacher are a team to point out the way and are not very effective if seperated.

When ever something comes along which is useful to clean our outlet, we mostly use them to block them. A live as a student is therefore mostly woebegone.

Thinking on unpleasant talks (Dukkathā Sutta

Bhikkhus, why is a talk on learnedness unpleasant to one without learning?

Bhikkhus, one without learning hearing a talk on learning becomes ill tempered, angry, retorts angrily and shows aversion. What is the reason? He does not see the attainment of learning in him and does not experience joy and delight on account of learnedness. Therefore to one without learnedness a talk on learnedness is unpleasant.

Bhikkhus, why is a talk on learnedness pleasant to one with learning?

Bhikkhus, one with learning hearing a talk on learning does not become ill tempered or angry, does not retort angrily or show aversion. What is the reason? He sees the attainment of learning in him and experiences joy and delight on account of learnedness. Therefore to one with learnedness a talk on learnedness is pleasant.


I don't think that I would give you much joy, so I better abstain (as a real unlearned) to post here. Sorry for interrupting.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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