Copyright on the Dhamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Copyright on the Dhamma

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Not for profit organisations like the BPS and Wisdom Books still have to pay staff, printing costs, etc.

Even those of us who don't have high overheads have other reasons for wanting to control the redistribution of our work. In my case, it is because if I find errors, I can update them at any time — I don't want old copies of my work with errors floating about in cyber-space. If the books and fonts are freely available from my site, then people can get the most recent editions from there.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Copyright on the Dhamma

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

For those who want to support the Buddhist publication Society, you can Donate Here.
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Hanzze
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Re: Copyright on the Dhamma

Post by Hanzze »

tiltbillings wrote:
Maarten2 wrote:
I don't think this is true in this age anymore, where one little USB stick can hold what used to fill libraries and books can be published online at virtually for no cost, it is not beneficial that translations of Buddhist scriptures are protected by copyright. As Buddhist non-profits I don't think they would be deaf this
I suggest that you put in the effort to carefully learn Pali with a qualified teacher so that you do not make the mistakes of the self-taught. You can expect maybe 5 or so years of intense learning before your can start to translate on a competent level, and then you can translate the texts, making them free for everyone. I wonder what the cost of all that would be?
If in the Dhamma tradition way, it would just cost you to let go of mundane ways. Nothing, but you need to give up all others first. *smile* So I guess the problem is mostly to ride on two vehicles at the same time.

From my view, to walk the traditional way would be also much more without side unwholesome effects; for the Robin Hoods; for the poor, waiting on heroes; as well as for the "ruling" owner of the treasures.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Hanzze
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Re: Copyright on the Dhamma

Post by Hanzze »

santa100 wrote:Hanzze wrote:
"That is the old "Boddhisattva-bafflement", you will not find and evidence for it in the teachings of the Buddha."

You'll find tons of hot debates about what is and what is not Buddha's authentic teaching here on this site, so I won't need to repeat myself. But before you make any statement, please ask yourself: do you know or have you read ALL OF the teachings of the Buddha, and have you clearly seen the boundaries of His teachings?
Could one read them in any book? I guess the boutonnieres are very clear. To let conviction win over knowledge is always the difficult barrier to go on.
Verse 166: For the sake of another's benefit, however great it may be, do not neglect one's own (moral) benefit. Clearly perceiving one's own benefit one should make every effort to attain it.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
santa100
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Re: Copyright on the Dhamma

Post by santa100 »

Sure, Verse 166: "For the sake of another's benefit, however great it may be, do not neglect one's own (moral) benefit. Clearly perceiving one's own benefit one should make every effort to attain it." clearly did not tell one to forsake others just for the sake of oneself either..
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Cittasanto
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Re: Copyright on the Dhamma

Post by Cittasanto »

Maarten2 wrote:I have skimmed those discussions, but I hope you understand that I could not read every post. Could you be so kind and point me to specific answers to my question? Note that it is not an inquiry about copyright law or morality, but more about whether there is a chance that the copyright holders of those translations would release them in the public domain, either in exchange for money or good kamma.
Hi Maarten,
This inquiry is out side the bounds of the majority (except members who are directly involved in those who hold such copyright) of members here, you would have to ask the copyright holders of the texts in question.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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mikenz66
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Re: Copyright on the Dhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

As I pointed out on one of those threads, the decision of how to manage one's organisation and intellectual property is a difficult one. Non-profit organisations, such as the Pali Text Society, Buddhist Publication Society, and Wisdom Publications, have been around for a long time. More than a century in the case of PTS. By careful management, and latterly by collaboration with Wisdom (Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations are also distributed by PTS) PTS has ensured that high-quality English translations of almost the entire Tipitika are available and accessible to all who wish to purchase them or have access to a good library. On-line resources such as Access to Insight are simply not in the same league either in quality or quantity.

Furthermore, the cost of the Wisdom Nikayas is actually rather small in comparison to the amount of use I've got out of them. I've spent hundreds of hours simply listening to Bhikkhu Bodhi's (free) lectures on the MN alone (while, of course, referring to the text).

While I applaud other methods of distribution, it is not clear to me that they would have sufficed to support such efforts as effectively over such a span of time. Research, translation, editing, and production are difficult and time-consuming. Moreover, keeping electronic resources safe is also not trivial. They have to updated in format every decade or so.

Ironically, publications that are produced for free are often more difficult to obtain than "commercial" volumes. More and more are available electronically, which does help, though, as noted above, it does not ensure lasting availability.

The Internet may well change the "business model" of the non-profits such as PTS, BPS, Wisdom, etc. BPS in particular has been starting to proved PDF's as well has hard copies (e.g. the Visuddhimagga), and perhaps others will follow. However, if I were running those organisations I would want to be careful not to lose what has been built over decades/centuries.

:anjali:
Mike
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Cittasanto
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Re: Copyright on the Dhamma

Post by Cittasanto »

:anjali: :goodpost: :anjali:

it is also worth noting that the quality of the publications we see usually requires professional assistance, and not all professionals are in a position, or have the inclination, to do things for free for such a scale.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Maarten2
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Re: Copyright on the Dhamma

Post by Maarten2 »

Thanks Mike and Banthe for your sincere answers to my question.

When I composed my original post, I was under the asumption that Wisdom Publications is basically a for-profit publisher, who takes a typesetted manustript and basically just prints it (I then looked them up and changed my post a little to indicate that they are a non-profit). I now see that I actually know little about what they, BPS and the PTS do.

I still believe that there is a good business case to be made for releasing the translations of the suttas under public domain or at least free of charge for non-commercial use. I think, I will let the issue rest, do some more research and then follow up on Cittasanto's suggestion and compose a letter to Bhikkhu Bodhi.
May you all become enlightened.
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mikenz66
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Re: Copyright on the Dhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Maarten,
Maarten2 wrote: I still believe that there is a good business case to be made for releasing the translations of the suttas under public domain or at least free of charge for non-commercial use. I think, I will let the issue rest, do some more research and then follow up on Cittasanto's suggestion and compose a letter to Bhikkhu Bodhi.
It would certainly be very good if the model that BPS seems to have adopted of both selling printed copies and releasing electronic versions turns out to be a viable long-term solution. To me that would be the "best of both worlds" as long as it did not reduce the production of high-quality material.

There was a rumour going around that Wisdom were considering releasing PDFs of their translations, but so far that has not eventuated.

:anjali:
Mike
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Hanzze
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Re: Copyright on the Dhamma

Post by Hanzze »

Dear friends,

maybe some additional thought to the issue and I like to start with some sentences form „The Awakening of Compassion and Wisdom“ by Ven. Master Chin Kung (founder of Budaedu.or) about teaching and supplying Dhamma:
In order to teach other, we practice cultivation as well as encouraging others to do likewise. We do so to sincerely introduce Buddhism to other people. What is our driving force? Compassion. But if we do so for wealth or fame, then it is purely business and this is totally wrong for it totally violates the very spirit of Buddhism.
In fact, the circulation of the teachings, including sutras and reference works should be unconditional. Copyrighted material do not accord with the true spirit of Buddhism. Every time I am presented with a Buddhist book, I first check for the copyright page. If it says “This book is protected by copyright; any unauthorized printing of this book shall lead to punishment”, I will not read the book. If asked why I do not want to read it, my answer is that any true and good knowledge should benefit others unconditionally and that reprinting should be allowed. It would be a waste of time and energy to read copyrighted book. Only the writings of those who are broadminded and kind-hearted and who sincerely practice what they teach deserve to be read and studied. How can we expect a narrow-minded, profit-seeking to write good things and conclude them with the great perfection?...
Some would now say, yes that's the point (bearing in mind, the main task in Dhamma practice is to help)

I guess the real problem (like always when we do not find a good solution) is deeper. Our practice of Dhamma should generally have the intention to turn usual or common into the way of Dhamma and we need have some faith that our commons are not so pure that the way it should grow to.
So our general inspiration should be to turn in direction of the Dhamma and not to turn Dhamma into the direction of our commons.

There is an important borderline of orientation and that is the acting according to Vinaya and the a good common acting.

When we look at mikenz66 statements for example - "To me that would be the "best of both worlds" as long as it did not reduce the production of high-quality material. " - they are very according to the teachings of the Buddha to layman in regard of possession, and knowledge is also possession.
"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones — using the wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained — wards off from calamities coming from fire, flood, kings, thieves, or hateful heirs, and keeps himself safe. This is the third benefit that can be obtained from wealth.

Adiya Sutta
So there is no problem, if somebody publishing Dhamma Books and makes a livelihood (The running/, working of/for non profit organizations is also a kind of livelihood) out of it.
But even here we have one important addition, which we should keep in mind and protect us from suffering:
"If it so happens that, when a disciple of the noble ones obtains these five benefits from wealth, his wealth goes to depletion, the thought occurs to him, 'Even though my wealth has gone to depletion, I have obtained the five benefits that can be obtained from wealth,' and he feels no remorse. If it so happens that, when a disciple of the noble ones obtains these five benefits from wealth, his wealth increases, the thought occurs to him, 'I have obtained the five benefits that can be obtained from wealth, and my wealth has increased,' and he feels no remorse. So he feels no remorse in either case."
Different is it in regard of somebody following the Vinaya as there is no more such thing like possession and no more exchange of it. There is no more "mine" and there is no more aspiration to put other intentions higher as virtue. Actually in the Vinaya there are a couple of rules in regard of teaching Dhamma: how, whom, in which conditions and so on.
They have proposes: To protect the reputation of Dhamma and Sangha, to make a teaching event not to something wasted, to protect the teacher himself, to transport the real meaning also in a surrounding which does not suggest that Dhamma is something hypocritical and theoretical.
One other thing is, that there is a reason why Dhamma was original an oral tradition, because it would be difficult to turn a line between producing (and with it additional harming) literature for entertainment or for Dhamma. So we would have the old taking for the sake of giving problem.
One more thing is, that in the common ways, the Dhamma easily degenerates to something that is written but nobody really lives according to it. It’s also very humanly that secrify our live for the welfare of others (help) rather than to actually practice it honestly. So there are manifold projects beside the practice project and countless organizations beside the Organisation Sangha.
I guess it was after the council of Rangoon, that Buddhist monks started to use new technologies to reproduce the Tipitaka. From a honest view on the Vinaya, it was not so good and I guess an act out of seeing the Dhamma and Vinaya fading away in Asia. But we do not need to adopt fearful reaction to commons but establish more trust into the teachings of the Buddha.

However the history was, we are here and we are able to change things more into direction of Dhamma and the most necessary condition to force the flourish of Dhamma is teaching the value and the meaning of Dana as well that supporting somebody walking a holy path is not made to get something back. That would be not easy if the teachings are not in balance with the idea of economy beside of direct exchange, somebody not doing very strict in regards of Dana, would not be able to teach it correctly or would give a suggestion that it is just something theoretical.
There is no such Dana for teaching relation inside the way of Dhamma Dana.
I guess it is good when we support people who take care of free given Dhamma as well it is good to support Bhikkhus in a way that they neither need to be involved in worldly business nor need to step over some rules.
It’s also needed to see that (like many things today) Dhamma translation and Dhamma distribution and teaching is in the Hand of people who often do not really live a holy life, so it’s natural that the own ways and kind of thinking penetrates the teachings with time. And Buddha Dhamma does really not need theoretical conservation to survive, those things decay much faster as we might think.
As long as there are people putting main effort into practice rather than to enjoy times in “how it could be” Dhamma and Vinaya will not be gone even if it is not public available on demand.
It might sound very naughty and in-compassionated, but if one likes to help a Bhikkhu or others, take them away their projects and jump into their old shoes. You can learn and do better while you give those in front of you more freedom to make an additional step.
Otherwise it will lose its dynamic very soon.

I guess this Dhamma Dana AṬṬHAKAVAGGA (Sutta Nipāta, 4) shows well the cave of projects even if they are for a "higher" (?) propose:
II. GUHAṬṬHAKA SUTTA
II. EIGHT-VERSED DISCOURSE ON THE CAVE

1. Holding fast in a cave, much obscured,
A man stays plunged in confused stupidity.
He, being of such a type, is far from detachment.
Objects of desire in this world are indeed not easy to abandon.

2. Founded in desire, bound to the pleasures of existence,
People are released with difficulty and indeed cannot get release
from another.
Hoping for what is after or before,
Longing for these desirable objects or former ones,

3. Greedy, engrossed, confounded over objects of desire,
Miserly, they are entrenched in the way of inequality.
And brought to an uneasy end they lament,
“What will become of us when we have passed away from here?”

4. Therefore a person should train himself right here and now;
Whatever he would know in the world to be a way of inequality
Not because of that should he go along the unequal way.
The wise say this life is but a little thing indeed.

5. I see in the world this race of men
Thrashing about with craving for existences.
Inferior men cry out in the jaws of Death
With craving not gone for this or that existence.

6. See them thrashing in the midst of what they call “mine”
Like fishes in a dried-up stream with little water.
And having seen that, one should go the way of “not mine,”
Not working up attachment for existences.

7. Having dismissed preference for either extreme,
Having thoroughly understood stimulation, not greedy for
anything,
Not doing that which would lead to self-reproach,
A wise man is not stuck to by the seen or the heard.

8. Having truly understood perception he would cross over the flood.
A sage is not mired with possessions.
With the spike pulled out, going with mind unclouded,
He does not wish for this world or another.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
Maarten2
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Re: Copyright on the Dhamma

Post by Maarten2 »

Thanks for your reply, but I am afraid you miss my point somewhat. I also think it is legitimate to make a livelihood selling translations of the Pali Cannon, but it does not need to be protected by copyright for that. Take the Pali Cannon itself. It not protected by copyright (because it predated the concept of copyright), but it still gets sold in printed form by the PTS.
May you all become enlightened.
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Hanzze
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Re: Copyright on the Dhamma

Post by Hanzze »

Maarten2,

There is no business if there is no kind of protection, that goes hand in hand. So this or that. Both is nice but not possible. If you do not protect your business its gone, today faster as ever before. I guess this are the actual occupy spirits dreaming of a wonderland who create such ideas.

Actually I guess its better to turn to the direction Dhamma Dana, Dhamma does not have a wholesome base for business. But therefore one needs to learn gratitude first. The illusion of rights are working very efficient against gratitude, who ever claims right. The publisher as well as somebody thinking that he has a right on Dhamma.

If I don't like to give you something, what will you do? You can jump around what ever you like, there are no right but there are task to walk according to the natural law without violation it.

If some like to have to whole copyright of all Dhamma teachings of the Buddha, let him and wish him that he might find peace in this way.

Let them sell, wish them much success and also those who buy it. Its good to discover the own intentions. What does it change for you? Why do you lift up this topic?

Dhamma is about following tasks and watch for ones own responsibilities, it not about right. Rights are pretty trivial from a Dhamma view.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
Maarten2
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Re: Copyright on the Dhamma

Post by Maarten2 »

Hanzze wrote:There is no business if there is no kind of protection, that goes hand in hand.
I think there two reasons why you would think that:

1. The market will get flodded with cheaper prints.
2. People won't buy books anymore, if they can also have it for free.

If it is 1), I think you are underestimating how expensive it is to print a book. Printing cheap books is really only possible if print them in large quantities. I don't think the profit margin that Wisdom is making on each book (or any publisher really) is actually that large.

If it is 2), there are two options a) you are right, b) you are wrong. I would personally say b) is the case. For example Mindfulness in Plain English is available online for free, but I still bought the book after I read the first few chapters online. I didn't do so out of compassion for the author (then I would have donated directly), but because I like to have a good book in my shelve and because it is more pleasant to read on paper. I think others would feel the same.

If, however, b) is the case then I would like give the example for Wikipedia. Wikipedia is the 6th largest website in the world. It has expenses of millions of dollars. All these are accounted for by donation. Or take kickstarter, a website where people can seek funding for their projects:
wikipedia wrote:As of April 2012, Kickstarter had more than $175 million dollars pledged and more than 20,000 successfully funded projects.[...] The Pebble E-Paper Watch raised more than $10,000,000 to become the most funded project in Kickstarter history. In fact, the Pebble achieved this only six days after launch (April 17, 2012) as it surpassed [video game] Double Fine Adventure, which only raised a little more than $3 million.
Given these examples, I think it is not naive to believe any potential losses from book sales can be compensated by donations. This a cause I would be willing to donate as much money for as I can personally afford to. Part of why I raised this question was to see if other felt the same way about it.
If I don't like to give you something, what will you do?
I was planning on sending a polite and carefully worded, well researched letter to state my case.
Actually I guess its better to turn to the direction Dhamma Dana, Dhamma does not have a wholesome base for business.
The Buddha did not expect all his disciples to become Monks and Nuns. If someone has the choice to make a living publishing Buddhist books or regular books, they choose the former and as a result more people get in contact with the Dhamma, I think we should applaud them instead of criticizing them. Like Mike said, these books are worth much more then anyone could ever charge for them.
May you all become enlightened.
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Hanzze
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Re: Copyright on the Dhamma

Post by Hanzze »

Maarten,

you have been right, I totally miss the point. Actually I do not see any reasonable point any more. Maybe you like to recollect your real problem, or better recollect that there is actually no.
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:For those who want to support the Buddhist publication Society, you can Donate Here.
Your intention will make it to real Dana or not.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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