Physical pain - nama or rupa?

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retrofuturist
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Physical pain - nama or rupa?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:46 am

Greetings,

I've probably read the answer to this question somewhere, but I wouldn't know quite where to look for the answer, so I thought it might be easier to ask here, and hopefully someone can answer me at the drop of a hat.

Obviously the physical body constitutes rupa, but what about physical pain arising from rupa? How is that classified in the Abhidhamma? Is it rupa too, or is it nama?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

Never again...

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Re: Physical pain - nama or rupa?

Postby jcsuperstar » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:12 am

good question.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: Physical pain - nama or rupa?

Postby cooran » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:55 am

Hello Retro, all,

These threads from dhammastudygroup may be helpful:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/

You will need to join, if you are not already a member. Then click on Files in the menu on the left hand side. Then click on "Useful_Posts_March_2009.htm"
Choose 'P' and scroll down to:
Pain, Painful feelings
3862, 3879, 14230, 28108, 45268, 45592, 47937, 52240, 61395, 69147, 70462, 80310, 87449

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Dhammanando
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Re: Physical pain - nama or rupa?

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:31 pm

Painful bodily feeling is the vedanā that accompanies the fifth of the seven types of unwholesome-resultant consciousness (akusala-vipāka citta), namely, unwholesome-resultant bodily consciousness accompanied by pain (dukkhasahagataṃ kāyaviññāṇaṃ). The basis (vatthu) of this citta is rūpa, but the citta itself and the vedanā are nāma.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
The Great Sage did thus proclaim
With many a diverse chosen name
Vipassanā stilled and purified,
That to Emergence is allied.

Saṃsāra-cycle’s swamp of pain
Is vast and terrible; a man
Wisely should strive as best he can,
If he would this Emergence gain.
(Visuddhimagga XXI)

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retrofuturist
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Re: Physical pain - nama or rupa?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:38 pm

Greetings bhante,

Thank you.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

Never again...

Sylvester
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Re: Physical pain - nama or rupa?

Postby Sylvester » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:11 am

Dhammanando wrote:Painful bodily feeling is the vedanā that accompanies the fifth of the seven types of unwholesome-resultant consciousness (akusala-vipāka citta), namely, unwholesome-resultant bodily consciousness accompanied by pain (dukkhasahagataṃ kāyaviññāṇaṃ). The basis (vatthu) of this citta is rūpa, but the citta itself and the vedanā are nāma.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu


Dear Bhante

I apologise in advance if I am trawling up old material, but hope you can assist with a point related to your previous assertion of "kammic minimalism" and the akusala-vipaka citta above.

Is this akusala-vipaka citta ALWAYS the result of kamma, whether past life or present life kamma? If so, is it still tenable to assert kammic minimalism as per Sivaka Sutta, SN 36.21 on the basis that kamma may or may not have been the operative factor in determining the rupa-vatthu part of the phassa triad?

If so, would it be correct to conclude that what comes into contact with our external sense media may or may not be kamma vipaka, but that all corresponding vinnana of such phassa is kammically determined?

With metta

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Re: Physical pain - nama or rupa?

Postby Individual » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:20 am

Physical pain is "dukkha". Mental pain is "domanassa".

Ven. Dhammanando, if the citta associated with physical pain is nama, how is dukkha distinguished from domanassa?
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Re: Physical pain - nama or rupa?

Postby terryshine » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:03 pm

I think the body only has touch sensation. If it is a soft touch (rupa) then a pleasant mental feeling arises (nama), which is called pleasurable body feeling, as it is based on the body, but is'nt the body. If a hard touch then an unpleasant mental feeling arises, which is called unpleasant body feeling, as it is based on the body, but is'nt the body. Where the switch from pleasant to unpleasant is I guess would be due to past Kamma, but not sure. I'm absolutely 100% sure that this is correct - unless of course I'm wrong!
Terry

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Re: Physical pain - nama or rupa?

Postby Ben » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:15 am

Dear all

This is a friendly reminder that posts in the Classical Mahavihara Theravada fora require textual evidence to support a contention.

The Abhidhamma and Classical Theravada sub-forums are specialized venues for the discussion of the Abhidhamma and the classical Mahavihara understanding of the Dhamma. Within these forums the Pali Tipitaka and its commentaries are for discussion purposes treated as authoritative. These forums are for the benefit of those members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of these texts and are not for the challenging of the Abhidhamma and/or Theravada commentarial literature.

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Thanks for your cooperation.
Metta

Ben
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terryshine
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Re: Physical pain - nama or rupa?

Postby terryshine » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:45 am

Thanks Ben, I'm just wondering were the Buddha gained his knowlege from if not from meditation experience!


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