should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Hanzze
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Hanzze »

Ben wrote:
Hanzze wrote:
Ben wrote: What about the healthy pursuits of target shooting and trap shooting??
kind regards,
Ben
What is healthy with it? Beginning from it's very roots, it's a playfully training for a propose and it's not for the sake of right concentration.

What does one feel if he hits the center? Victory? Pride?

There I need to think on another story with my brother about 10 years later. He joined shooting club of the police and was very successful (even state champion) and full into it. I was visiting him and he took me on the shooting range. I don't like guns, but well. Then he liked me to try it, never had a real weapon in my hand. Uhh, I had real respect. Then he wanted me to shoot at the target which was in the form of a human. I did not like to see or even imagine that, so I just focused on the center. Bang, bang, bang. I could not see what was the result and was not interested. I even did not ask and leave them alone. Later on I was wondering why my brother did act so strange toward me and did not speak. After a while I heard him talking with his friend: "He even does not know what a Glock is, comes here and excels my leading club standard."
I knew it was no good idea... so just a kind of final confirmation.
This is just the result of your own projection, Hanzze. Your attitude towards guns is shaped by your own aversion.
Its a healthy pursuit because it develops concentration and skill and is a technically challenging sport.
What one does one feel if he hits the centre? That is the realm of speculation.
As to your brother's dismissal of your lack of knowledge - people like that are everywhere and not limited to the shooting range.
kind regards,

Ben
Ben,

it might be that you projection is that I never was used to it. Beside guns, I don't think that there was any form of sport beginning from throw balls at cans, to darts, sling, arch, crossbow... I didn't enjoyed when I was younger. As to my brother, I hit the red three times and that was a slash into the face with was not intended.
I know the joy very well, the reasons, the feeling, the motivation...

My attitude toward weapons (in connection with Buddhist practice) has just to do with much real experiences also outside of the game world. I am used to have peoples with automatic weapons in front of my house. And people shouting animals in the back. A static object is boring and it does not need long till we use our talents for something "useful" and "good"

Just watch the feelings and intentions.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Hanzze wrote:A static object is boring and it does not need long till we use our talents for something "useful" and "good"
That is an unjustified statement if you mean it to be so for everyone who shoots "static" targets.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Hanzze
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Hanzze »

tiltbillings wrote:
pilgrim wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Which is pretty much the case, but there seem to be those who think that an inanimate object, be it a gun, an axe, a pointy stick by its very existence is evil.
A gun is in a different category as it has a very definite purpose. Its design is to kill.
Not necessarily.
Using it to shoot tin cans is way under its full potential. Its not something one should own without giving the idea considerable thought, as opposed to owning a pointy stick.
Shooting tin cans with a .22 with open sights at 75 yards is the full potential of my rifle. I am the one who determines what the full potential is, not you, not any one else.
Sports-arms are a side business of business with weapon.
"A lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison."

— AN 5.177
We also know that game weapons, sporting with weapon, war games... are forced form governments to keep people trained and prepared starting from childhood.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Hanzze wrote: Sports-arms are a side business of business with weapon.
Not necessarily.

We also know that game weapons, sporting with weapon, war games... are forced form governments to keep people trained and prepared starting from childhood.
We know that? And FaceBook is a CIA plot.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ben
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Ben »

Hi Hanzze,
Hanzze wrote:A static object is boring and it does not need long till we use our talents for something "useful" and "good"

Just watch the feelings and intentions.
I have actually spent many hours shooting at the inner yellow circle of a target roundel. As manas mentioned above - it is very meditative.
Archery-target.jpg
Archery-target.jpg (40.94 KiB) Viewed 2794 times
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Hanzze
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Hanzze »

tiltbillings wrote:
Hanzze wrote: Sports-arms are a side business of business with weapon.
Not necessarily.
So who has developed them, what are the roots of weapons? Fun? Mindfulness training?

Beside of that it also has a reputation and example impact. We know the martial art suggestion and its effects in history very well.

Buddha was a very talented archer, guess why I did not suggested such trainings.

tiltbillings wrote:
Hanzze wrote:We also know that game weapons, sporting with weapon, war games... are forced form governments to keep people trained and prepared starting from childhood.
We know that? And FaceBook is a CIA plot.
Tiltbillings,

Guess why there is less information in English language? Guess who leads the most wars at this time? And may there be a interconnection?

Here an old German Christmas song:

„Morgen kommt der Weihnachtsmann,
kommt mit seinen Gaben.
Trommel, Pfeifen und Gewehr,
Fahn’ und Säbel und noch mehr,
ja ein ganzes Kriegesheer
möchte’ ich gerne haben.“


"Tomorrow come the Santa Clause,
comes with all his gifts.
Drums, whistle und Gun,
Flag and saber and much more,
yes a whole army
I like to have."

from military games on German wiki

Shooting-clubs have always developed form very right-wing organizations with nationalistic or very conservative traditional organizations. I guess we will hardly find any club which does not have such tendencies naturally.

Maybe its also useful to understand the word weapon:
A weapon, arm, or armament is a tool or instrument used in order to inflict damage or harm to living beings - physical or mental -, artificial structures, or systems. In human society, weapons are used to increase the efficacy and efficiency of activities such as hunting, crime, law enforcement, and warfare.

wiki
[/quote]

The target is an outside target, it's training and needed concentration is proposed to an outside target. So it's not useful in the frame of Buddhist practice, of cause it might bring one to it one time, but yet not participating on the eightfold path.
The technique is very similar, but the object is totally different, so one could just focus on what he might see.
Buddha used those to archer known techniques for their understanding to turn them to the eightfold path. So many similes are in regard of this, but the simply reason is, that there have been many people involved in such things. To make a converse argument out from it misses the point and leads to something not useful.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Hanzze wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Hanzze wrote: Sports-arms are a side business of business with weapon.
Not necessarily.
So who has developed them, what are the roots of weapons? Fun? Mindfulness training?

Beside of that it also has a reputation and example impact. We know the martial art suggestion and its effects in history very well.
It would help if you actually knew what you are talking about. Not all gun manufacturers make combat -- police and military -- weapons. Some are strictly what you have called "sports-arms."
Buddha was a very talented archer
Only in the later hagiographies.
guess why I did not suggested such trainings.
I do not care.

As for for the rest of it, it is off-topic.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Hanzze
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Hanzze »

Ben wrote:Hi Hanzze,
Hanzze wrote:A static object is boring and it does not need long till we use our talents for something "useful" and "good"

Just watch the feelings and intentions.
I have actually spent many hours shooting at the inner yellow circle of a target roundel. As manas mentioned above - it is very meditative.
I am sure you might be able to use it for a better propose. Did you ever try to hit a inside target, is this talent really useful to gain insight? Is the propose really one that trains concentration of is it the joy coming with hitting a target.

There is no problem with talents like this but we also need to understand the danger of it, so if somebody like to train his concentration also with a outside object, I guess it would be good to suggest shooting soft balls at cans or maybe boccia and not weapons (per definition).

Dhp 72
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Hanzze
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Hanzze »

tiltbillings wrote:
Hanzze wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Not necessarily.
So who has developed them, what are the roots of weapons? Fun? Mindfulness training?

Beside of that it also has a reputation and example impact. We know the martial art suggestion and its effects in history very well.
It would help if you actually knew what you are talking about. Not all gun manufacturers make combat -- police and military -- weapons. Some are strictly what you have called "sports-arms."
Buddha was a very talented archer
Only in the later hagiographies.
guess why I did not suggested such trainings.
I do not care.

As for for the rest of it, it is off-topic.
Who made guns to games on this topic? I also find it quite shameful to mix it.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Hanzze wrote: Who made guns to games on this topic? I also find it quite shameful to mix it.
The OP: "is there any reason a practicing Buddhist should own a gun? " There's no reason why a Buddhist should own a gun, but there might be a reason or two why a Buddhist might own a gun, which is what has been explored as well as a reason or two why a Buddhist might not want to own a gun, which has been explored. You do not have to agree with those reasons, but I think we need to stay more or less on topic lest this thread gets into an unwieldy set of opinion pieces and arguments that go far afield from the topic at hand.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Hanzze
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Hanzze »

I agree with you tendency, but the underlining discrepancy is "Can we call somebody still having/using a gun a Buddhist" (from a view of refuge and taking precepts) and that is what seems to lead to defending situations here. Understandable if we like to be one.
And they lived arguing, quarreling, and disputing, wounding one another with weapons of the mouth, saying, "The Dhamma is like this, it's not like that. The Dhamma's not like that, it's like this."

Then in the early morning, a large number of monks, having put on their robes and carrying their bowls and outer robes, went into Savatthi for alms. Having gone for alms in Savatthi, after the meal, returning from their alms round, they went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, they said to the Blessed One: "Lord, there are many brahmans, contemplatives, and wanderers of various sects living around Savatthi with differing views, differing opinions, differing beliefs, dependent for support on their differing views... and they live arguing, quarreling, and disputing, wounding one another with weapons of the mouth, saying, 'The Dhamma is like this, it's not like that. The Dhamma's not like that, it's like this.'"

Various Sectarians
It's not so easy to put the gun's down.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Hanzze wrote:I agree with you tendency, but the underlining discrepancy is "Can we call somebody still having/using a gun a Buddhist" (from a view of refuge and taking precepts) and that is what seems to lead to defending situations here. Understandable if we like to be one.
A couple of things. You need to slow down with your writing here. You can do better than this, but I think I get what you are trying to say. I own a gun, I shoot it and I am a Buddhist in terms of the Triple Refuge and the precepts. While I'll listen to and consider other opinions here, what matters in terms of my practice is what I do, not how other people judge me.

The point here is that there are a variety of opinions concerning this issue, some very well stated, but they are just that -- opinions. We can share them, but we also need to allow for the differences with out getting into a fruitless and less than wholesome finger pointing of saying you are not a Buddhist because you do not agree with the "right" opinion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
jason c
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by jason c »

David N. Snyder wrote:Over at Dharma Wheel (Mahayana) there was a long discussion about guns; it got pretty heated at times and the moderators closed the thread several times (currently it is closed).
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=4884" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My view is sort of in the middle:

Though I am a gun owner, I do not support the wide proliferation of firearms. Guns are not for everyone. There are some gun-nuts who believe everyone should be armed. There are a number of people who should not own guns, including those with mental health issues, ex-convicts, felons, those prone to marital strife, short-tempers, etc., and of course those who simply don't have a need or interest. I do not advocate that everyone should have a gun. But for some there may be an interest and necessity or simply a sport to shoot at paper targets.
hi david,

do you not feel that with the technological advances in food production, the days of guns being a necessary tool for survival are over. my post is directed to practicing buddhists, not the general public. how is shooting a gun at a paper target in any way profitable towards the goal of liberation, by this action one may encourage their children or others that gun ownership is something to cultivate, this can only lead to harm in the future. also, the argrument of SELF protection seems comical to me, practicing day in and day out to realize the SELF as an illusion and then owning a gun to protect this illusion.

metta,
jason
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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

jason c wrote: how is shooting a gun at a paper target in any way profitable towards the goal of liberation,
Do you do anything for recreation that is not Buddhist, practice related?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

"Gun" is an external object. I find the tendency to speak of "gun" in absolutes to miss the entire point of the Dhamma.

I could point back to Rahula's mirror yet again, but that would probably be boring for you all. In short, kamma is cetana/intention

:guns:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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