should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

[Cittasanto]

No more and no less than bowling.

Well bowling can not be used used in the same way for violence as it can for recreation.

[Ben]

appart from collecting, the only reason to have one is if the military required supply of own weapons for service due to be done, and as that is not the case anywhere....

What about the healthy pursuits of target shooting and trap shooting??
kind regards,
Ben

What is healthy with it? Beginning from it's very roots, it's a playfully training for a propose and it's not for the sake of right concentration.

What does one feel if he hits the center? Victory? Pride?

There I need to think on another story with my brother about 10 years later. He joined shooting club of the police and was very successful (even state champion) and full into it. I was visiting him and he took me on the shooting range. I don't like guns, but well. Then he liked me to try it, never had a real weapon in my hand. Uhh, I had real respect. Then he wanted me to shoot at the target which was in the form of a human. I did not like to see or even imagine that, so I just focused on the center. Bang, bang, bang. I could not see what was the result and was not interested. I even did not ask and leave them alone. Later on I was wondering why my brother did act so strange toward me and did not speak. After a while I heard him talking with his friend: "He even does not know what a Glock is, comes here and excels my leading club standard."
I knew it was no good idea... so just a kind of final confirmation.

This is just the result of your own projection, Hanzze. Your attitude towards guns is shaped by your own aversion.
Its a healthy pursuit because it develops concentration and skill and is a technically challenging sport.
What one does one feel if he hits the centre? That is the realm of speculation.
As to your brother's dismissal of your lack of knowledge - people like that are everywhere and not limited to the shooting range.
kind regards,

Ben

[tiltbillings]

There is not really a "should" or "should not". It's up to you. And as said, it is all about the intention.

Which is pretty much the case, but there seem to be those who think that an inanimate object, be it a gun, an axe, a pointy stick by its very existence is evil.

[Ben]

Hi Cittasanto,

appart from collecting, the only reason to have one is if the military required supply of own weapons for service due to be done, and as that is not the case anywhere....

What about the healthy pursuits of target shooting and trap shooting??
kind regards,

Ben

Do these support or hold the possibility to support the continuation of consciousness or the development of consciousness that leads to unskilled states of mind?

I think we need to take responsibility for our own state of mind. You could ask a similar question regarding driving a vehicle (a car can be used as a weapon), and developing knife skills as a chef.
kind regards,

Ben

[tiltbillings]

No more and no less than bowling.

Well bowling can not be used used in the same way for violence as it can for recreation.

A bowling ball can be -- and has been -- used as a murder weapon.

But you have totally, completely and absolutely not answered the point put to you.

Ben: What about the healthy pursuits of target shooting and trap shooting??

Cittasanto: Do these support or hold the possibility to support the continuation of consciousness or the development of consciousness that leads to unskilled states of mind?

And I stated: No more and no less than bowling.

Your replied: Well bowling can not be used used in the same way for violence as it can for recreation.[/quote]A bowling ball can be -- and has been -- used as a murder weapon, which, of course, does not answer the point raised. Ben and I were not talking about violence. Not in the least. Keep the context in mind when responding to the msg.

[reflection]

There is not really a "should" or "should not". It's up to you. And as said, it is all about the intention.

Which is pretty much the case, but there seem to be those who think that an inanimate object, be it a gun, an axe, a pointy stick by its very existence is evil.

Hi Tilt,

I think that is understandable because they are often made with the reason of hurting or threatening other beings. Also, it's a much smaller step from owning a gun to shooting / threatening someone than it is from not owning a gun. But you are right, in essence a gun is just a gun. A stiletto is just a stiletto. A landmine is just a landmine. In themselves they have no wrong or good intentions.

And as you pointed out, other things can just as well be used with the wrong intentions to hurt others. For example the best weapon: speech. Still nobody says Buddhists should not own speech. We say we should not have wrong speech. I think the same can be said about weapons. We should not partake in wrong (or unskilful) weapon ownage.

I hope this creates some food for thought for jason so he can make his own decision.

[pilgrim]

There is not really a "should" or "should not". It's up to you. And as said, it is all about the intention.

Which is pretty much the case, but there seem to be those who think that an inanimate object, be it a gun, an axe, a pointy stick by its very existence is evil.

A gun is in a different category as it has a very definite purpose. Its design is to kill. Using it to shoot tin cans is way under its full potential. Its not something one should own without giving the idea considerable thought, as opposed to owning a pointy stick.

[manas]

What is healthy with it? Beginning from it's very roots, it's a playfully training for a propose and it's not for the sake of right concentration.

What does one feel if he hits the center? Victory? Pride?

Hi hanzze

I can recall going pistol shooting, at a very professional firing range, with qualified instructors etc. I only went a few times as I cannot really afford it long term, but I must say, the satisfaction of hitting the target (which I hardly did) was that I had been able to listen to the instructions, and actually improve from when I first began. Pride was the last emotion on my mind, as pistols are very dangerous and all I could think of was to do everything properly and safely etc. What I found very interesting from our perspective here, was that I did better if I cleared out my thoughts, relaxed, and placed 'focussed, unified attention' when I was aiming at the target and pulling the trigger. It required quite a bit of calm, steady mindfulness & alertness to execute. That moment when releasing the trigger, reminded me of meditation. There was a kind of quiettude in that moment, even amidst all the loudness and gunpowder smoke.

kind regards,
manas.

[Hanzze]

There is a saying: "Imagine there is war and nobody takes part"

That would be wonderful, in an ideal world. But the reality is that it is not. I can think of many, many reasons why Buddhists ( or any person for that matter) should not own a gun or any weapon, but in reply to the OP's question, I cannot give a blanket NO. If I live in a place where there is great social unrest, violent crime,in a country with civil war, genocidal regime, bands of roving marauders or such, I can understand why a person would wish to keep a weapon at home or carry one if he needs to venture out for food. Unless one fancies oneself to be enlightened and have no further craving for existence.

I live in a place of social unrest, violent crime, in a country with civil war, and a tendency of genocidal regime. To have no weapon is the way the only way to live a secure and peaceful live. I can not remember being on other places like that.

That remembers me on a story. While I was walking to the northern border into the war zone, we rested in the last provincial capitals monastery. After that, there would be 70 km just forest, soldier and road building people. The Abbot of this pagoda also responsible for the monastery in the middle of the front-line on the border called for us. He asked if we might have enough protection, weapons, telephone and so on. I could not believe what he asked, so I just asked back if a Monk would be allowed to carry such things. But there are tiger, soldiers, thief's... don't you think it would be better if you protect your self? I really didn't know what to say. I just thought that there is really less faith in what the Buddha had taught. The next weeks have been the most secure and peaceful part on our journey. While tanks would stay in pagodas for transport breaks and to repair them, the streets and the forest was mostly lonely accept of fear full people with weapons crossing by time by time.

To carry a weapon is most silly, especial if you are on such a place.

[tiltbillings]

There is not really a "should" or "should not". It's up to you. And as said, it is all about the intention.

Which is pretty much the case, but there seem to be those who think that an inanimate object, be it a gun, an axe, a pointy stick by its very existence is evil.

A gun is in a different category as it has a very definite purpose. Its design is to kill.

Not necessarily.

Using it to shoot tin cans is way under its full potential. Its not something one should own without giving the idea considerable thought, as opposed to owning a pointy stick.

Shooting tin cans with a .22 with open sights at 75 yards is the full potential of my rifle. I am the one who determines what the full potential is, not you, not any one else.

[Hanzze]

What about the healthy pursuits of target shooting and trap shooting??
kind regards,
Ben

What is healthy with it? Beginning from it's very roots, it's a playfully training for a propose and it's not for the sake of right concentration.

What does one feel if he hits the center? Victory? Pride?

There I need to think on another story with my brother about 10 years later. He joined shooting club of the police and was very successful (even state champion) and full into it. I was visiting him and he took me on the shooting range. I don't like guns, but well. Then he liked me to try it, never had a real weapon in my hand. Uhh, I had real respect. Then he wanted me to shoot at the target which was in the form of a human. I did not like to see or even imagine that, so I just focused on the center. Bang, bang, bang. I could not see what was the result and was not interested. I even did not ask and leave them alone. Later on I was wondering why my brother did act so strange toward me and did not speak. After a while I heard him talking with his friend: "He even does not know what a Glock is, comes here and excels my leading club standard."
I knew it was no good idea... so just a kind of final confirmation.

This is just the result of your own projection, Hanzze. Your attitude towards guns is shaped by your own aversion.
Its a healthy pursuit because it develops concentration and skill and is a technically challenging sport.
What one does one feel if he hits the centre? That is the realm of speculation.
As to your brother's dismissal of your lack of knowledge - people like that are everywhere and not limited to the shooting range.
kind regards,

Ben

Ben,

it might be that you projection is that I never was used to it. Beside guns, I don't think that there was any form of sport beginning from throw balls at cans, to darts, sling, arch, crossbow... I didn't enjoyed when I was younger. As to my brother, I hit the red three times and that was a slash into the face with was not intended.
I know the joy very well, the reasons, the feeling, the motivation...

My attitude toward weapons (in connection with Buddhist practice) has just to do with much real experiences also outside of the game world. I am used to have peoples with automatic weapons in front of my house. And people shouting animals in the back. A static object is boring and it does not need long till we use our talents for something "useful" and "good"

Just watch the feelings and intentions.

[tiltbillings]

A static object is boring and it does not need long till we use our talents for something "useful" and "good"

That is an unjustified statement if you mean it to be so for everyone who shoots "static" targets.

[Hanzze]

Which is pretty much the case, but there seem to be those who think that an inanimate object, be it a gun, an axe, a pointy stick by its very existence is evil.

A gun is in a different category as it has a very definite purpose. Its design is to kill.

Not necessarily.

Using it to shoot tin cans is way under its full potential. Its not something one should own without giving the idea considerable thought, as opposed to owning a pointy stick.

Shooting tin cans with a .22 with open sights at 75 yards is the full potential of my rifle. I am the one who determines what the full potential is, not you, not any one else.

Sports-arms are a side business of business with weapon.

"A lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison."

— AN 5.177

We also know that game weapons, sporting with weapon, war games... are forced form governments to keep people trained and prepared starting from childhood.

[tiltbillings]

Sports-arms are a side business of business with weapon.

Not necessarily.

We also know that game weapons, sporting with weapon, war games... are forced form governments to keep people trained and prepared starting from childhood.

We know that? And FaceBook is a CIA plot.

[Ben]

Hi Hanzze,

A static object is boring and it does not need long till we use our talents for something "useful" and "good"

Just watch the feelings and intentions.

I have actually spent many hours shooting at the inner yellow circle of a target roundel. As manas mentioned above - it is very meditative.

Archery-target.jpg (41.07 KiB) Viewed 108 times

[Hanzze]

Sports-arms are a side business of business with weapon.

Not necessarily.

So who has developed them, what are the roots of weapons? Fun? Mindfulness training?

Beside of that it also has a reputation and example impact. We know the martial art suggestion and its effects in history very well.

Buddha was a very talented archer, guess why I did not suggested such trainings.

We also know that game weapons, sporting with weapon, war games... are forced form governments to keep people trained and prepared starting from childhood.

We know that? And FaceBook is a CIA plot.

Tiltbillings,

Guess why there is less information in English language? Guess who leads the most wars at this time? And may there be a interconnection?

Here an old German Christmas song:

„Morgen kommt der Weihnachtsmann,
kommt mit seinen Gaben.
Trommel, Pfeifen und Gewehr,
Fahn’ und Säbel und noch mehr,
ja ein ganzes Kriegesheer
möchte’ ich gerne haben.“

"Tomorrow come the Santa Clause,
comes with all his gifts.
Drums, whistle und Gun,
Flag and saber and much more,
yes a whole army
I like to have."

from military games on German wiki

Shooting-clubs have always developed form very right-wing organizations with nationalistic or very conservative traditional organizations. I guess we will hardly find any club which does not have such tendencies naturally.

Maybe its also useful to understand the word weapon:

A weapon, arm, or armament is a tool or instrument used in order to inflict damage or harm to living beings - physical or mental -, artificial structures, or systems. In human society, weapons are used to increase the efficacy and efficiency of activities such as hunting, crime, law enforcement, and warfare.

wiki

[/quote]

The target is an outside target, it's training and needed concentration is proposed to an outside target. So it's not useful in the frame of Buddhist practice, of cause it might bring one to it one time, but yet not participating on the eightfold path.
The technique is very similar, but the object is totally different, so one could just focus on what he might see.
Buddha used those to archer known techniques for their understanding to turn them to the eightfold path. So many similes are in regard of this, but the simply reason is, that there have been many people involved in such things. To make a converse argument out from it misses the point and leads to something not useful.

[tiltbillings]

Sports-arms are a side business of business with weapon.

Not necessarily.

So who has developed them, what are the roots of weapons? Fun? Mindfulness training?

Beside of that it also has a reputation and example impact. We know the martial art suggestion and its effects in history very well.

It would help if you actually knew what you are talking about. Not all gun manufacturers make combat -- police and military -- weapons. Some are strictly what you have called "sports-arms."

Buddha was a very talented archer

Only in the later hagiographies.

guess why I did not suggested such trainings.

I do not care.

As for for the rest of it, it is off-topic.

[Hanzze]

Hi Hanzze,

A static object is boring and it does not need long till we use our talents for something "useful" and "good"

Just watch the feelings and intentions.

I have actually spent many hours shooting at the inner yellow circle of a target roundel. As manas mentioned above - it is very meditative.

I am sure you might be able to use it for a better propose. Did you ever try to hit a inside target, is this talent really useful to gain insight? Is the propose really one that trains concentration of is it the joy coming with hitting a target.

There is no problem with talents like this but we also need to understand the danger of it, so if somebody like to train his concentration also with a outside object, I guess it would be good to suggest shooting soft balls at cans or maybe boccia and not weapons (per definition).

Dhp 72

[Hanzze]

Not necessarily.

So who has developed them, what are the roots of weapons? Fun? Mindfulness training?

Beside of that it also has a reputation and example impact. We know the martial art suggestion and its effects in history very well.

It would help if you actually knew what you are talking about. Not all gun manufacturers make combat -- police and military -- weapons. Some are strictly what you have called "sports-arms."

Buddha was a very talented archer

Only in the later hagiographies.

guess why I did not suggested such trainings.

I do not care.

As for for the rest of it, it is off-topic.

Who made guns to games on this topic? I also find it quite shameful to mix it.

[tiltbillings]

Who made guns to games on this topic? I also find it quite shameful to mix it.

The OP: "is there any reason a practicing Buddhist should own a gun? " There's no reason why a Buddhist should own a gun, but there might be a reason or two why a Buddhist might own a gun, which is what has been explored as well as a reason or two why a Buddhist might not want to own a gun, which has been explored. You do not have to agree with those reasons, but I think we need to stay more or less on topic lest this thread gets into an unwieldy set of opinion pieces and arguments that go far afield from the topic at hand.