should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Truth_Seeker1989
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Truth_Seeker1989 »

Cittasanto, do you honestly believe you are without risk from you and your family being harmed? Not everyone has the beautiful life you have. Most live in areas where this is a chance. Self defense is a logical conclusion. When there is no other choice, but to fight for your loved ones, you take it.

In the days when an entire village was about to be raided, the villagers, even if they were Buddhist, took up arms, so that their livelihood was not threatened/destroyed. If you were that one villager who hid beneath a cart, and watched his people suffer to the onslaught, to your people, you were a coward. You can't hide behind blind teachings that only taught generalities, not certain circumstances that happened, and still happen, in everyday life. Logic goes a long way.

When protests fail, and aren't even allowed, no option but to fight, you fight. When the attacker intends harm against you, leaves no option but to fight back, you fight. When you see your family being harmed, and 'knew' that should you have used violence to protect them, that they would be fine, and even the attackers themselves, yet you did nothing, your a coward.

The key phrase here is, "When you have no option but to fight..."
Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Truth_Seeker1989 »

Mr Man wrote:
Bodhisvasti wrote:
I wish it were like that here, Mr Man.
Do you mean that you wish there was no possibility of legally owning a gun for self defence where you live?
I wish it were made so that guns were not allowed, yes. But so long as they are to the masses, I will happily own one to defend myself. And if it were like that here, I would have a bow, I would have a sword, I would have some form of protection. Traps and safe-nets set up in my home, possibly a safehouse. But I would be prepared, because no harm will come to my loved ones, can I help it.

Here it is different, with so many people who are poor, and so many people who are addicted to drugs, who will do anything for it, it might be best to not allow it to the general public. But you live with what you have, you aren't allowed firearms, so get a bow, get a blade.
Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).
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SDC
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by SDC »

jason c wrote:hi SDC,
my wife has a car, we both use it to run errands, its great! i speak from experience as someone who has abused the car privelage,(drinking and driving, speeding, road rage, etc....) my past is not very shiny. do not feel i'm being judgemental with my postings, most of them come from my own life experience. if i hadn't found the dhamma i am quite sure i would have killed someone or myself. i'm lucky to have woken up.
Thanks for the clarification.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by bodom »

Sharon Salzberg tells a story about being attacked on a rickshaw in Bodh Gaya and the advice her teacher Anagarika Munindra gave her:
I went up to one of my teachers, Munindra, and I told him what had happened, and he said to me, “Oh, Sharon, with all the lovingkindness in your heart, you should have taken your umbrella and hit that man over the head with it.”
http://www.bodhitree.com/node/1266" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by cooran »

Hello Bodom,

The main purpose of an umbrella is not to wound or kill.

with metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by SDC »

jason c wrote:it would not be my fault, if someone else harmed a member of my family. and it would not be my fault if i could not prevent this from happening.
But would you do what you could to protect them? You wouldn't just sit back and let it happen? I doubt this is what you mean.

You wouldn't sacrifice yourself for another?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Truth_Seeker1989 »

cooran wrote:Hello Bodom,

The main purpose of an umbrella is not to wound or kill.

with metta,
Chris
Because the only purpose of a gun is to wound or kill? That is wrong, illogical. The main purpose for a typical individual, outside of a military service, is for self defense. That man in that case, did not have a gun held to her head, or a sword.

A gun is meant for self defense, that is the main purpose for anyone to get one in the first place. If it were the case that firearms did not exist, we would still need a bow, a blade, a club, etc. Because it is highly likely that the attacker will have one too. You try rushing a man who attacking your family with a gun pointed at you. Lol.
Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).
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bodom
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by bodom »

cooran wrote:Hello Bodom,

The main purpose of an umbrella is not to wound or kill.

with metta,
Chris
Hi Chris

Nor is the kitchen knife I am using currently too make dinner for myself and the kids. As always it is the intention behind picking these tools up and what use we put them too that is important. This is what I wished to communicate with the story.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:but as you bring up context, the context of what I said regarding laying down the stick and club, is the first precept, I have in my last post corrected the misquote, within that context the Buddhas advise is clear, ahimsa, while being a practical teaching for followers of the Buddha is a big teaching within the teachings.

EDIT - I will add that the question is regarding practicing buddhists and the default here is what the Buddha taught, be that canon, or commentarial, I do not believe any of which say a practicing Buddhist should have weapons.
Again, you do not address what Ben and I said.

Also, owning a bow or a gun or a knife or a pair of hands is not in and it itself a violation of ahimsa.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Mr Man »

bodom wrote:Sharon Salzberg tells a story about being attacked on a rickshaw in Bodh Gaya and the advice her teacher Anagarika Munindra gave her:
Just as well she didn't have a gun
:P
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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
bodom wrote:Sharon Salzberg tells a story about being attacked on a rickshaw in Bodh Gaya and the advice her teacher Anagarika Munindra gave her:
Just as well she didn't have a gun
:P
She should not have whacked the attacker? Having a gun does not mean one is inevitably going to shoot someone, and it does not mean that one is inclined to shoot someone.

But all of this is just covering the same ground over and over. I wonder if anyone here has anything new to say here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Mr Man »

A kitchen knife is designed for use in the kitchen. What is a Colt 45 designed for? I wonder if inanimate objects have a destiny?
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Truth_Seeker1989 »

Maybe summarise everything up?

Assuming we are speaking from a Buddhist perspective?

Anything and everything can and has been used as a tool of self defense. A gun, to the commoner, is a tool specifically made for self defense.

Intention is the cause of bad karma/immorality.

It is not immoral to own a gun, because it was purchased for self defense, in the hope of it never being used. The intent to kill is not there. And it is not being used for trading in weapons.

When given no other choice, at all, but to defend yourself with your gun, you shoot. Causing no bad Karma, being with no blame, and without immorality. Just rational.



I don't know. Everything there seems so logical to me. I tried to think from the viewpoint of the other guys, but it simply does not make sense. If your a Buddhist, you may own a gun so long is it is there simply as a tool for the self defense of you and your loved ones. If there is no intent to harm someone with it, then it is not immoral. When you are attacked, you never 'intended' to kill the man, you simply did what you could to defend yourself, and your family.

And to not do everything in your power to defend your family, including violence when no other option is available, makes you a coward, IMO.
Last edited by Truth_Seeker1989 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

bodom wrote:
cooran wrote:Hello Bodom,

The main purpose of an umbrella is not to wound or kill.

with metta,
Chris
Hi Chris

Nor is the kitchen knife I am using currently too make dinner for myself and the kids. As always it is the intention behind picking these tools up and what use we put them too that is important and what I wished to communicate with the story.

:anjali:
One use for a large kitchen knife:Image To be sure, this is a use I have never put to my large kitchen knife, a tool that I find very useful, but following the logic of some here, it is a tool that should not be owned by good Buddhists because of its potential for easy and proven lethality.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by DNS »

jason c wrote:
if i weild a gun at the first sign of trouble i most certainly will be attracting trouble.
That would be a complete misuse, improper use of a firearm, even in self-defense. All gun safety classes that I know of, teach that in self-defense a gun can only be used for the protection of your life or the life of another. It is not used to intimidate another or to settle a score or in response to an insult, etc. For example, if someone comes at you with fists and you are younger, stronger, bigger, you do not respond with a gun, even though the person is coming at you to assault you. If someone is pounding on your car with a club or bat or even a machete, you don't pull your gun (if you have one); you just drive away. The classes teach avoidance of these situations, not confrontation. And in spite of the high rate of gun ownership in the U.S., the misuse rarely occurs among those who legally obtained firearms, possibly due to the beneficial safety courses.
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