What do these words actually mean?

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What do these words actually mean?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:48 pm

SN 12.16 Dhammakathiko Sutta The Teacher of the Dhamma

Sn 2.6 Dhammacariya Sutta Wrong Conduct

I dont know what Dhammakathiko means but I thought Dhammacariya ment dhamma teacher, which according to these suttas Dhammakathiko means Dhamma Teacher so what do these actually mean?
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: What do these words actually mean?

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:36 am

I think it's correct according to the Suttas.

dhammakathiko means "One who expounds the Law, one who has the gift of preaching"

dhammacariyā means "Religious life, piety" deduced from dhammo and cariyā (conduct according to dhamma)
(dhammo: and (dhammaṃ)Nature, condition, quality, property, characteristic; function, practice, duty; object, thing, idea, phenomenon; doctrine; law; virtue, piety; justice; the law or Truth of the Buddha; the Buddhist scriptures; religion/Religous
cariyā: Walking, roaming; observance, practice, conduct)
Manapa wrote:I dont know what Dhammakathiko means but I thought Dhammacariya ment dhamma teacher, which according to these suttas Dhammakathiko means Dhamma Teacher so what do these actually mean?

I suppose you thought dhammacariya ment dhamma teacher, because of the acariya which is the same as ajahn in thai language. I guess in that case the word dhammo and the word acariya would have to be combined to dhammācariya. I didn't find that word dhammācariya but I found dhammacariyā.
That's why I'm quite sure that I translated it correctly.

Hope it helps.
best wishes
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: What do these words actually mean?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:52 am

Hi Acinteyya,
Dhammachariya is a title for Dhamma Teacher, I know a couple of people who have the title, and if you do a search can easily be found (and one of my friends is quite close to the top of the results as is a group I use to go to back home 1,2 & 3 on the Yahoo search), but dhammakathiko is harder to find for a straight translation for and the only one I can see exept to the sutta in english or pali, says it means Dhamma Preacher so a bit of confusion there, suppose if the english was What a dhamma teacher shuld avoid or isn't would of been clearer, due to the content of the sutta(Dhammachariya) and what I know of the pali.

acinteyya wrote:I think it's correct according to the Suttas.

dhammakathiko means "One who expounds the Law, one who has the gift of preaching"

dhammacariyā means "Religious life, piety" deduced from dhammo and cariyā (conduct according to dhamma)
(dhammo: and (dhammaṃ)Nature, condition, quality, property, characteristic; function, practice, duty; object, thing, idea, phenomenon; doctrine; law; virtue, piety; justice; the law or Truth of the Buddha; the Buddhist scriptures; religion/Religous
cariyā: Walking, roaming; observance, practice, conduct)
Manapa wrote:I dont know what Dhammakathiko means but I thought Dhammacariya ment dhamma teacher, which according to these suttas Dhammakathiko means Dhamma Teacher so what do these actually mean?

I suppose you thought dhammacariya ment dhamma teacher, because of the acariya which is the same as ajahn in thai language. I guess in that case the word dhammo and the word acariya would have to be combined to dhammācariya. I didn't find that word dhammācariya but I found dhammacariyā.
That's why I'm quite sure that I translated it correctly.

Hope it helps.
best wishes
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: What do these words actually mean?

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:12 pm

Manapa wrote:Hi Acinteyya,
Dhammachariya is a title for Dhamma Teacher, I know a couple of people who have the title, and if you do a search can easily be found (and one of my friends is quite close to the top of the results as is a group I use to go to back home 1,2 & 3 on the Yahoo search), but dhammakathiko is harder to find for a straight translation for and the only one I can see exept to the sutta in english or pali, says it means Dhamma Preacher so a bit of confusion there, (...)

Hi Manapa,
I read about that title a couple times. Maby this makes things clearer Ajahn and acariya
acinteyya wrote:dhammakathiko means "One who expounds the Law, one who has the gift of preaching"

I would also say Dhammakathiko means something like Dhammapreacher and doesn't mean Dhammateacher.
Manapa wrote:(...) suppose if the english was What a dhamma teacher shuld avoid or isn't would of been clearer, due to the content of the sutta(Dhammachariya) and what I know of the pali.

yeah. I suppose dhammacariyā means something like "to behave according to dhamma", because of the meaning of the word cariyā which means conduct, that's what I suppose in this case.
It's a little bit difficult for me, because I translate pali first into german and then try to find the equivalent english word or expression. Hope it helps anyhow ;)
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: What do these words actually mean?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:07 pm

Hi Acinteyya
acinteyya wrote:dhammakathiko means "One who expounds the Law, one who has the gift of preaching"

I would also say Dhammakathiko means something like Dhammapreacher and doesn't mean Dhammateacher.

I think my main problem here was I was use to Dhammachariya being split into Dhamma Acharya so the it now makes more sense for the two different names on the PTS dictionary couldn't find any translation of the Dhammakathiko so tryed to split it with no success into Kathiko and Akathiko which was just as unyeilding.

Manapa wrote:(...) suppose if the english was What a dhamma teacher shuld avoid or isn't would of been clearer, due to the content of the sutta(Dhammachariya) and what I know of the pali.

yeah. I suppose dhammacariyā means something like "to behave according to dhamma", because of the meaning of the word cariyā which means conduct, that's what I suppose in this case.
It's a little bit difficult for me, because I translate pali first into german and then try to find the equivalent english word or expression. Hope it helps anyhow ;)[/quote]

missed the conduct translation you gave first time round, thanks for repeating it.
clung onto the Dhammachariya translation I know somewhat there!

just two other thing I believe Pali translating into german is Far easier than Pali into English do you think this is the case for translators who are native speakers of English or German, (Germans having a easier time translating so to speak)? I know I have found a German Monks teaching which explained a small amount of the difference between German and English words and their meaning in regards to ill will and Emnity I think it was from the BSWA usefull.
and I am sort of wondering why the exams are Dhammachariya and not Dhammakathiko? but then again not something that needs answering.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: What do these words actually mean?

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:21 pm

Manapa wrote:just two other thing I believe Pali translating into german is Far easier than Pali into English do you think this is the case for translators who are native speakers of English or German, (Germans having a easier time translating so to speak)?

hmm... I really don't know. I am a native speaker of german but not english, so I have nothing to compare with. It's easier of course for me to translate pali first into german and then into english. But I can't say anything about it if translation of pali into english could be identically easy for an english native speaker. All I can say about it is that german doesn't have as much words as the english language has. It's about 2 or 5 english words for only one german word. :shrug: and times are relative comparable, germans just don't usually use all existing grammatical forms ;)
Manapa wrote:I know I have found a German Monks teaching which explained a small amount of the difference between German and English words and their meaning in regards to ill will and Emnity I think it was from the BSWA usefull.
and I am sort of wondering why the exams are Dhammachariya and not Dhammakathiko? but then again not something that needs answering.

I don't understand the question. Sorry :embarassed:
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: What do these words actually mean?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:31 am

More on the off chance you knew more than anything there and the second one wasn't important anyway

Thanks Allot :anjali:
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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