should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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rowboat
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by rowboat »

rowboat wrote:Image

:candle:

The weapons industry is an unsupportable evil. In the holy life there is no place for a gun.
Worth repeating.
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:If you do not have hands, you will not hold a gun, a knife, a club, or use your hands themselves to kill someone.
That's silly. Obviously, owning a gun is different from having a knife or a club (or your hands). Guns revolutionized the way wars are fought and there's a reason for it: they are way more likely to kill. You don't see soldiers going to battle with golf clubs!
What is silly is your third and fourth sentences. A gun can do nothing until it is picked up by the hands of the individual who is going to use it.
I don't see anything silly in them. :shrug:

By that logic, women could wear cleavages in temples. There's nothing inherently wrong with cleavages. Yet they are banned from the temples.
tiltbillings wrote:
This is assuming that theravadin buddhists are conscious objectors. If not, then owning a gun to protect yourself is a possible way to deal with threats.
This Theravadin Buddhist was a card carrying, state recognized conscientious objector, which is what I assume you mean by "conscious objectors," during the draft era of the late 60's and early to mid 70's. Owning a gun and being a conscientious objector are not contradictory.
Happy to know a fellow concientious objector (that's what I meant, my english has its flaws). :smile:

They are not contraditory, but are certainly negatively correlated. I remember the story you told about a doctor who was serving in a war, and was a conscientious objector, and in the heat of the moment he killed another person (I don't remember if it was self deffense or other reason). Had there not been a gun there, he would not have killed. The problem with having guns is as exemplified in this and the other story I told: a gun can be a temptation in the heat of the moment. Not having them is better if you are following the first precept to its ultimate consequences.

This is a very american thing. Here in europe most countries put so many barriers on owning a gun that there's praticaly noone with a gun. Here the question is not "should a buddhist own a gun?", but "should a civilian own a gun?".
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

pilgrim wrote: The object may be different but the rationale is the same. Often, one has to push the argument to the extreme to see the flaw in it.
You pushed it over the edge, down the cliff and it died, which is the only flaw that was apparent.
I think there are situations where Buddhists could own guns, like for harmless sport as you pointed out, but I disagree that a gun is no different from a pointy stick.
They become implements of harm by virtue of how they are handled.
With great power comes great responsibility, and for a practicing Buddhist the consideration he must give to the idea must be considerable.
And no one here, I would hope, would disagree with that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Modus.Ponens wrote: By that logic, women could wear cleavages in temples. There's nothing inherently wrong with cleavages. Yet they are banned from the temples.
That has to do cultural mores rather than any objective wrongness with seeing bits of boobs, or whole boobs, for that matter.
. . . a gun can be a temptation in the heat of the moment.
So can a knife, a rock, push down the stairs . . . .
but "should a civilian own a gun?".
That is a different thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by rowboat »

tiltbillings: They become implements of by virtue of how they are handled.
This is gibberish. What are you trying to say?
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

rowboat wrote: The weapons industry is an unsupportable evil.
The weapons industry is not the evil; it is a manifestation of the evil, which is a very big difference.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

rowboat wrote:
tiltbillings: They become implements of by virtue of how they are handled.
This is gibberish. What are you trying to say?
They become implements of harm by virtue of how they are handled
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote: By that logic, women could wear cleavages in temples. There's nothing inherently wrong with cleavages. Yet they are banned from the temples.
That has to do cultural mores rather than any objective wrongness with seeing bits of boobs, or whole boobs, for that matter.
. . . a gun can be a temptation in the heat of the moment.
So can a knife, a rock, push down the stairs . . . .
but "should a civilian own a gun?".
That is a different thread.
-The Buddha advised his monks not to look at women. Though it's not on the vinaya, it's an advice given by the Buddha, so it's not merely a cultural thing.

-So imagine a real life situation: you're a doctor serving in a war, treating a patient inside a tent. You're far from the door. An enemy soldier comes inside with his gun down. Now split this scenario in 3.

1- you have a gun
2- you have a knife
3- you have a rock

In which of these scenarios does the enemy soldier get killed? Can you still equate having a gun to having a rock?

-It wasn't my intention to start that debate.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by rowboat »

The weapons industry is not the evil; it is a manifestation of the evil, which is a very big difference.
The evil, to take one example, occurred when the six year old Cambodian girl recently had both her legs blown through her abdomen because she stepped on an American landmine. Which Western super-power still refuses to sign the ban on landmines? Whose industry lobbyists pay money to which nation's politicians to keep said nation from signing the landmine treaty?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make when it comes to evil and manifestations of evil, but I suspect you are merely splitting hairs.
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

tiltbillings wrote:
rowboat wrote:
tiltbillings: They become implements of by virtue of how they are handled.
This is gibberish. What are you trying to say?
They become implements of harm by virtue of how they are handled
This is the same mentality of some mahayana people who say that renunciation is what's important, not the place you live or what you possess or if you wear robes.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Ben
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Ben »

Hi MP,
Modus.Ponens wrote: -So imagine a real life situation: you're a doctor serving in a war, treating a patient inside a tent. You're far from the door. An enemy soldier comes inside with his gun down. Now split this scenario in 3.

1- you have a gun
2- you have a knife
3- you have a rock

In which of these scenarios does the enemy soldier get killed? Can you still equate having a gun to having a rock?
Yes, but is it necessary to respond to the soldier's presence with violence? If one is a doctor treating a patient, would not treating the patient be your priority at that point in time?
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

rowboat wrote:
The weapons industry is not the evil; it is a manifestation of the evil, which is a very big difference.
The evil, to take one example, occurred when the six year old Cambodian girl recently had both her legs blown through her abdomen because she stepped on an American landmine. Which Western super-power still refuses to sign the ban on landmines? Whose industry lobbyists pay money to which nation's politicians to keep said nation from signing the landmine treaty?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make when it comes to evil and manifestations of evil, but I suspect you are merely splitting hairs.
I can top your horrifying stories, but the point is the real evil is what lies behind the weapons industry. Landmines, B-52s, IEDs while horrifying, are a manifestation of something a bit more primal and problematic. And you are going off topic here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Ben »

Hi MP,
Modus.Ponens wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:They become implements of harm by virtue of how they are handled
This is the same mentality of some mahayana people who say that renunciation is what's important, not the place you live or what you possess or if you wear robes.
Respectfully, I disagree. It is consistent with the Buddha's doctrine of kamma:
"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect."

— AN 6.63
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Modus.Ponens wrote:
This is the same mentality of some mahayana people who say that renunciation is what's important, not the place you live or what you possess or if you wear robes.
That sounds like a few verses from the Dhammapada.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Modus.Ponens wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote: By that logic, women could wear cleavages in temples. There's nothing inherently wrong with cleavages. Yet they are banned from the temples.
That has to do cultural mores rather than any objective wrongness with seeing bits of boobs, or whole boobs, for that matter.
. . . a gun can be a temptation in the heat of the moment.
So can a knife, a rock, push down the stairs . . . .
but "should a civilian own a gun?".
That is a different thread.
-The Buddha advised his monks not to look at women. Though it's not on the vinaya, it's an advice given by the Buddha, so it's not merely a cultural thing.
Of course it is a cultural thing. The Buddha lived within a very particular cultural milieu. As for telling monks not to look at women, you might want to keep in mind the Buddha's advice to Ananda concerning that.
-So imagine a real life situation: you're a doctor serving in a war, treating a patient inside a tent. You're far from the door. An enemy soldier comes inside with his gun down. Now split this scenario in 3.

1- you have a gun
2- you have a knife
3- you have a rock

In which of these scenarios does the enemy soldier get killed? Can you still equate having a gun to having a rock?

-It wasn't my intention to start that debate.
And if I don't have a gun, the enemy soldier kills me and everyone else in the tent. I'll go with Gandhi on this.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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