Worth repeating.rowboat wrote:
The weapons industry is an unsupportable evil. In the holy life there is no place for a gun.
should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it. Ud 5.5
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it. Ud 5.5
- Modus.Ponens
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
I don't see anything silly in them.tiltbillings wrote:What is silly is your third and fourth sentences. A gun can do nothing until it is picked up by the hands of the individual who is going to use it.Modus.Ponens wrote:That's silly. Obviously, owning a gun is different from having a knife or a club (or your hands). Guns revolutionized the way wars are fought and there's a reason for it: they are way more likely to kill. You don't see soldiers going to battle with golf clubs!tiltbillings wrote:If you do not have hands, you will not hold a gun, a knife, a club, or use your hands themselves to kill someone.
By that logic, women could wear cleavages in temples. There's nothing inherently wrong with cleavages. Yet they are banned from the temples.
Happy to know a fellow concientious objector (that's what I meant, my english has its flaws).tiltbillings wrote:This Theravadin Buddhist was a card carrying, state recognized conscientious objector, which is what I assume you mean by "conscious objectors," during the draft era of the late 60's and early to mid 70's. Owning a gun and being a conscientious objector are not contradictory.This is assuming that theravadin buddhists are conscious objectors. If not, then owning a gun to protect yourself is a possible way to deal with threats.
They are not contraditory, but are certainly negatively correlated. I remember the story you told about a doctor who was serving in a war, and was a conscientious objector, and in the heat of the moment he killed another person (I don't remember if it was self deffense or other reason). Had there not been a gun there, he would not have killed. The problem with having guns is as exemplified in this and the other story I told: a gun can be a temptation in the heat of the moment. Not having them is better if you are following the first precept to its ultimate consequences.
This is a very american thing. Here in europe most countries put so many barriers on owning a gun that there's praticaly noone with a gun. Here the question is not "should a buddhist own a gun?", but "should a civilian own a gun?".
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
- tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
You pushed it over the edge, down the cliff and it died, which is the only flaw that was apparent.pilgrim wrote: The object may be different but the rationale is the same. Often, one has to push the argument to the extreme to see the flaw in it.
They become implements of harm by virtue of how they are handled.I think there are situations where Buddhists could own guns, like for harmless sport as you pointed out, but I disagree that a gun is no different from a pointy stick.
And no one here, I would hope, would disagree with that.With great power comes great responsibility, and for a practicing Buddhist the consideration he must give to the idea must be considerable.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
That has to do cultural mores rather than any objective wrongness with seeing bits of boobs, or whole boobs, for that matter.Modus.Ponens wrote: By that logic, women could wear cleavages in temples. There's nothing inherently wrong with cleavages. Yet they are banned from the temples.
So can a knife, a rock, push down the stairs . . . .. . . a gun can be a temptation in the heat of the moment.
That is a different thread.but "should a civilian own a gun?".
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
This is gibberish. What are you trying to say?tiltbillings: They become implements of by virtue of how they are handled.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it. Ud 5.5
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it. Ud 5.5
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
The weapons industry is not the evil; it is a manifestation of the evil, which is a very big difference.rowboat wrote: The weapons industry is an unsupportable evil.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
They become implements of harm by virtue of how they are handledrowboat wrote:This is gibberish. What are you trying to say?tiltbillings: They become implements of by virtue of how they are handled.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- Modus.Ponens
- Posts: 3853
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
- Location: Gallifrey
Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
-The Buddha advised his monks not to look at women. Though it's not on the vinaya, it's an advice given by the Buddha, so it's not merely a cultural thing.tiltbillings wrote:That has to do cultural mores rather than any objective wrongness with seeing bits of boobs, or whole boobs, for that matter.Modus.Ponens wrote: By that logic, women could wear cleavages in temples. There's nothing inherently wrong with cleavages. Yet they are banned from the temples.
So can a knife, a rock, push down the stairs . . . .. . . a gun can be a temptation in the heat of the moment.
That is a different thread.but "should a civilian own a gun?".
-So imagine a real life situation: you're a doctor serving in a war, treating a patient inside a tent. You're far from the door. An enemy soldier comes inside with his gun down. Now split this scenario in 3.
1- you have a gun
2- you have a knife
3- you have a rock
In which of these scenarios does the enemy soldier get killed? Can you still equate having a gun to having a rock?
-It wasn't my intention to start that debate.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
The evil, to take one example, occurred when the six year old Cambodian girl recently had both her legs blown through her abdomen because she stepped on an American landmine. Which Western super-power still refuses to sign the ban on landmines? Whose industry lobbyists pay money to which nation's politicians to keep said nation from signing the landmine treaty?The weapons industry is not the evil; it is a manifestation of the evil, which is a very big difference.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make when it comes to evil and manifestations of evil, but I suspect you are merely splitting hairs.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it. Ud 5.5
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it. Ud 5.5
- Modus.Ponens
- Posts: 3853
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
- Location: Gallifrey
Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
This is the same mentality of some mahayana people who say that renunciation is what's important, not the place you live or what you possess or if you wear robes.tiltbillings wrote:They become implements of harm by virtue of how they are handledrowboat wrote:This is gibberish. What are you trying to say?tiltbillings: They become implements of by virtue of how they are handled.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
Hi MP,
kind regards,
Ben
Yes, but is it necessary to respond to the soldier's presence with violence? If one is a doctor treating a patient, would not treating the patient be your priority at that point in time?Modus.Ponens wrote: -So imagine a real life situation: you're a doctor serving in a war, treating a patient inside a tent. You're far from the door. An enemy soldier comes inside with his gun down. Now split this scenario in 3.
1- you have a gun
2- you have a knife
3- you have a rock
In which of these scenarios does the enemy soldier get killed? Can you still equate having a gun to having a rock?
kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
I can top your horrifying stories, but the point is the real evil is what lies behind the weapons industry. Landmines, B-52s, IEDs while horrifying, are a manifestation of something a bit more primal and problematic. And you are going off topic here.rowboat wrote:The evil, to take one example, occurred when the six year old Cambodian girl recently had both her legs blown through her abdomen because she stepped on an American landmine. Which Western super-power still refuses to sign the ban on landmines? Whose industry lobbyists pay money to which nation's politicians to keep said nation from signing the landmine treaty?The weapons industry is not the evil; it is a manifestation of the evil, which is a very big difference.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make when it comes to evil and manifestations of evil, but I suspect you are merely splitting hairs.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
Hi MP,
Ben
Respectfully, I disagree. It is consistent with the Buddha's doctrine of kamma:Modus.Ponens wrote:This is the same mentality of some mahayana people who say that renunciation is what's important, not the place you live or what you possess or if you wear robes.tiltbillings wrote:They become implements of harm by virtue of how they are handled
kind regards,"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect."
— AN 6.63
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
That sounds like a few verses from the Dhammapada.Modus.Ponens wrote:
This is the same mentality of some mahayana people who say that renunciation is what's important, not the place you live or what you possess or if you wear robes.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
Of course it is a cultural thing. The Buddha lived within a very particular cultural milieu. As for telling monks not to look at women, you might want to keep in mind the Buddha's advice to Ananda concerning that.Modus.Ponens wrote:-The Buddha advised his monks not to look at women. Though it's not on the vinaya, it's an advice given by the Buddha, so it's not merely a cultural thing.tiltbillings wrote:That has to do cultural mores rather than any objective wrongness with seeing bits of boobs, or whole boobs, for that matter.Modus.Ponens wrote: By that logic, women could wear cleavages in temples. There's nothing inherently wrong with cleavages. Yet they are banned from the temples.
So can a knife, a rock, push down the stairs . . . .. . . a gun can be a temptation in the heat of the moment.
That is a different thread.but "should a civilian own a gun?".
And if I don't have a gun, the enemy soldier kills me and everyone else in the tent. I'll go with Gandhi on this.-So imagine a real life situation: you're a doctor serving in a war, treating a patient inside a tent. You're far from the door. An enemy soldier comes inside with his gun down. Now split this scenario in 3.
1- you have a gun
2- you have a knife
3- you have a rock
In which of these scenarios does the enemy soldier get killed? Can you still equate having a gun to having a rock?
-It wasn't my intention to start that debate.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723