should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby Ben » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:32 am

rowboat wrote:
Ben wrote:Hi Tilt,

Certainly where I work, some nights we have a local (licenced) shooter who comes on site controlling feral animals.


I think you mean to say he is killing the animals. Please don't employ euphemisms that trivialize or attempt to conceal violence.


I don't condone what he does and I don't employ him. "Controlling feral animals" is not a euphemism - it is what it is.
kind regards,

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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:35 am

Cittasanto wrote:so with no modification (of use or power) the gun could not turned on a person and not cause (at least) injury?
although in this case as you are describing on a range, like I said that is (in my opinion) up to the person, but will only point to my earlier post quoted also. for my having a weapon (its design & purpose) while on the path is antithetical.
With no modification one's large butcher knife can be used to stab someone to death. Without any modification one's cricket bat can be used to bludgeon another to death and on and on.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby rowboat » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:41 am

Ben wrote:
rowboat wrote:
Ben wrote:Hi Tilt,

Certainly where I work, some nights we have a local (licenced) shooter who comes on site controlling feral animals.


I think you mean to say he is killing the animals. Please don't employ euphemisms that trivialize or attempt to conceal violence.


I don't condone what he does and I don't employ him. "Controlling feral animals" is not a euphemism - it is what it is.
kind regards,

Ben


I'm glad you don't condone the killing. You are wrong about that euphemism. Replacing language that has to do with death and killing with a euphemistic word like control is the quintessential example of euphemism.

eu·phe·mism/ˈyo͞ofəˌmizəm/
Noun:
A mild or indirect word or expression for one too harsh or blunt when referring to something unpleasant or embarrassing.
Last edited by rowboat on Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:41 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:I doubt you know what my opinion is.
You have been repeatedly voicing it here.

and you have repeatedly misrepresented what I have said from the start. so I highly doubt you know you do.
Visakhuposatha Sutta wrote:"'For all their lives the arahants dwell having abandoned killing living beings, refrain from killing living beings, they have laid down their staffs, laid down their weapons, they are conscientious, sympathetic, compassionate for the good of all living beings;

That certainly would apply if I pointed my gun at living beings with the intent to kill them, but since I do not, it certainly does not apply,

It says "they have laid down their staffs... weapons" it doesn't say anything about continued use of such weapons after.

and no one here has made a definitive, unassailable argument that it does apply, though you have voiced your opinion on the matter of this text. The context is quite clear, having to to do with killing, which I do not do.

the context is actually widened to more than just killing alone, or is "conscientious, sympathetic, compassionate for the good of all living beings" only about not killing, and not about other forms of ahimsa?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:43 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:so with no modification (of use or power) the gun could not turned on a person and not cause (at least) injury?
although in this case as you are describing on a range, like I said that is (in my opinion) up to the person, but will only point to my earlier post quoted also. for my having a weapon (its design & purpose) while on the path is antithetical.
With no modification one's large butcher knife can be used to stab someone to death. Without any modification one's cricket bat can be used to bludgeon another to death and on and on.

Actually that would be a modification of purpose. I have highlighted the relevant line you missed!
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:49 am

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:I doubt you know what my opinion is.
You have been repeatedly voicing it here.

and you have repeatedly misrepresented what I have said from the start. so I highly doubt you know you do.
If I have misrepresented what you said, my apologies. Sometimes, however, you are not very clear in what you say.

" it doesn't say anything about continued use of such weapons after.
It doesn't. And since the gun is longer being used to kill animals or people, it is not used to intimidate anyone, it is not an issue.

the context is actually widened to more than just killing alone, or is "conscientious, sympathetic, compassionate for the good of all living beings" only about not killing, and not about other forms of ahimsa?
Yes, and the non-lethal, non-harming use of a gun for recreational use is not an issue.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby rowboat » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:49 am

tiltbillings: Not knowing a thing about the set up I use, you have not a clue as to what you are talking about.



Do you shoot your .22 rifle at thin aluminum cans indoors? Or do you shoot your .22 rifle at aluminum cans outdoors?
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby Doshin » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:50 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Doshin wrote:I'm not sure what you want to state by this. I only wanted to express my belief that reaching for a gun in the imaginary setup, I find it most likely to bring more killing/harming, then if one where to take a more mindfull approach.
Except, you do not know that. You can only hope that that would be so.


I have never claimed to know it for a fact. So your statement is void.

I think I will rest, agreeing that we disagree.
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:56 am

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:so with no modification (of use or power) the gun could not turned on a person and not cause (at least) injury?
although in this case as you are describing on a range, like I said that is (in my opinion) up to the person, but will only point to my earlier post quoted also. for my having a weapon (its design & purpose) while on the path is antithetical.
With no modification one's large butcher knife can be used to stab someone to death. Without any modification one's cricket bat can be used to bludgeon another to death and on and on.

Actually that would be a modification of purpose. I have highlighted the relevant line you missed!
I don't give a rat's tookus about the supposed "design and purpose." All that matters in the context of my using a gun is my motivation when I pick it up. The gun in the photo Ben uploaded, its "design and purpose" is solely target shooting. A car's design and purpose is transportation, but it can also be used as a lethal weapon. The "modification of purpose" is beside the point. What matters is what happens when the gun, the butcher knife, the cricket bat, etc is picked up.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:00 am

Doshin wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Doshin wrote:I'm not sure what you want to state by this. I only wanted to express my belief that reaching for a gun in the imaginary setup, I find it most likely to bring more killing/harming, then if one where to take a more mindfull approach.
Except, you do not know that. You can only hope that that would be so.


I have never claimed to know it for a fact. So your statement is void.
Not at all. There Is enough real world evidence in various wars of medics being killed, field hospital being targeted in various ways. And given that the imaginary scenario is just that -- imaginary, there is nothing actual to know.

I think I will rest, agreeing that we disagree.
Sounds good.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby rowboat » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:02 am

tiltbillings: I don't give a rat's tookus...


A rat's tookus is exactly what I am concerned about! This is why I asked you whether you target shoot indoors or outdoors.

;)
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:06 am

rowboat wrote:
tiltbillings: I don't give a rat's tookus...


A rat's tookus is exactly what I am concerned about! This is why I asked you whether you target shoot indoors or outdoors.

;)
It is not an issue.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby rowboat » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:10 am

It is not an issue.


Do you mean that once the bullet has left the gun you feel it is no longer your responsibility or concern because your intention was to hit the target?
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:12 am

rowboat wrote:I'm glad you don't condone the killing. You are wrong about that euphemism.
Not at all. The shooter may be killing feral animals, likely cats, but it is essentially the population numbers that are being controlled.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:13 am

rowboat wrote:
It is not an issue.


Do you mean that once the bullet has left the gun you feel it is no longer your responsibility or concern because your intention was to hit the target?
Quite the opposite, which is why it is not an issue.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby rowboat » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:13 am

Of course I am in no way suggesting you are being careless about the safety of human beings when you target shoot. But I happen to treat the lives of birds, small mammals, and insects as being very important. I'm only assuming that this is a dimension to your well-enjoyed pastime which you haven't fully considered.
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:17 am

rowboat wrote:Of course I am in no way suggesting you are being careless about the safety of human beings when you target shoot. But I happen to treat the lives of birds, small mammals, and insects as being very important. I'm only assuming that this is a dimension to your well-enjoyed pastime which you haven't fully considered.
Well, I would not assume that about me, but then since I know what I do, I don't have to worry about it. It is not an issue.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby rowboat » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:18 am

tiltbillings wrote:
rowboat wrote:I'm glad you don't condone the killing. You are wrong about that euphemism.
Not at all. The shooter may be killing feral animals, likely cats, but it is essentially the population numbers that are being controlled.


To talk about population "numbers" is just one more abstraction away from the fact that individual animals are being shot and killed. You cannot kill numbers.
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby jason c » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:19 am

SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Other than going over the same ground repeatedly, do we have anything new to say here?


Practicing Buddhists shouldn't talk about guns. :D


very, wise my friend. :namaste:
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:21 am

rowboat wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
rowboat wrote:I'm glad you don't condone the killing. You are wrong about that euphemism.
Not at all. The shooter may be killing feral animals, likely cats, but it is essentially the population numbers that are being controlled.


To talk about population "numbers" is just one more abstraction away from the fact that individual animals are being shot and killed. You cannot kill numbers.
Sure, and it is a way of keeping the population controlled.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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