kamma vipaka and sankharas

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Nibbida
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kamma vipaka and sankharas

Post by Nibbida »

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Last edited by Nibbida on Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Individual
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Re: kamma vipaka and sankharas

Post by Individual »

Mental formations (sankhara) is what produces wholesome or unwholesome intentions (kusala or akusala cetana); this is action (kamma). Vipaka is the result of this kamma.
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Re: kamma vipaka and sankharas

Post by retrofuturist »

Nice summary Individual.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: kamma vipaka and sankharas

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Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, etiam nunc justo urna vehicula, rhoncus nam non facilisis aliquet, mauris nulla nisl convallis per ut. Venenatis per, vitae dapibus nam pellentesque id pellentesque, tortor augue. Wisi neque lacus dolor et, bibendum leo, mattis quam quisque, curabitur aenean mollis semper diam nisl, maecenas neque non velit. Iaculis velit rutrum odio nibh, lectus et pellentesque arcu quam ac, sit velit tellus hendrerit a augue nisl, mollis ipsum, iaculis vestibulum orci dui mauris ante. Purus malesuada, ut sem, potenti wisi sit velit. Mi dignissim felis rhoncus mauris facilisis, urna consectetuer quisque aliquam curabitur. Suspendisse libero amet sed feugiat. Consequat amet elit consectetuer ut et pellentesque, duis imperdiet nostra sed vestibulum, quis adipiscing nulla ante mattis. At ut commodo, nec orci, metus praesent.

Cras id, tellus wisi quisque curabitur, erat augue lacus lectus pretium, lacus quam tellus vitae quam. Nullam lorem nunc, velit maecenas, vestibulum sed suspendisse eget sem, velit sed, sed libero id. Nec a et. Fermentum senectus consectetuer, faucibus est pharetra vel ac rhoncus nec, ultrices sed mauris perspiciatis odio, ut neque neque posuere. Ullamcorper odio nunc wisi posuere. Pede est vestibulum, eu nunc pharetra, id maecenas accumsan quam faucibus luctus, habitasse vel sagittis eu convallis, urna dolor. Ac dolor ac tellus libero quis lacinia, justo elit vel quis, vestibulum viverra pellentesque sit. Quis tortor ullamcorper amet magnis hymenaeos potenti, interdum mollis quam aliquam turpis nihil.
Last edited by Nibbida on Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: kamma vipaka and sankharas

Post by Jechbi »

This discussion might be of interest to you.
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But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: kamma vipaka and sankharas

Post by Individual »

Nibbida wrote:Hmmmm... I get it more or less, but need to flesh it out a bit more. Can't kamma produce new sankharas? That's the understanding I got from Goenka's book The Art of Living. I see sankharas as conditioned habits in a sense, although they may involve more than that. If so, what would an example of vipaka be? The literal consequences of one's actions?
Kamma can produce new sankharas. The Twelve Chains of Dependent-Origination (the twelve nidanas) are a cycle, without beginning or end. Vipaka is the literal consequences of one's actions, but they do not necessarily manifest instantly, even within a single lifetime.
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Re: kamma vipaka and sankharas

Post by Nibbida »

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, etiam nunc justo urna vehicula, rhoncus nam non facilisis aliquet, mauris nulla nisl convallis per ut. Venenatis per, vitae dapibus nam pellentesque id pellentesque, tortor augue. Wisi neque lacus dolor et, bibendum leo, mattis quam quisque, curabitur aenean mollis semper diam nisl, maecenas neque non velit. Iaculis velit rutrum odio nibh, lectus et pellentesque arcu quam ac, sit velit tellus hendrerit a augue nisl, mollis ipsum, iaculis vestibulum orci dui mauris ante. Purus malesuada, ut sem, potenti wisi sit velit. Mi dignissim felis rhoncus mauris facilisis, urna consectetuer quisque aliquam curabitur. Suspendisse libero amet sed feugiat. Consequat amet elit consectetuer ut et pellentesque, duis imperdiet nostra sed vestibulum, quis adipiscing nulla ante mattis. At ut commodo, nec orci, metus praesent.

Cras id, tellus wisi quisque curabitur, erat augue lacus lectus pretium, lacus quam tellus vitae quam. Nullam lorem nunc, velit maecenas, vestibulum sed suspendisse eget sem, velit sed, sed libero id. Nec a et. Fermentum senectus consectetuer, faucibus est pharetra vel ac rhoncus nec, ultrices sed mauris perspiciatis odio, ut neque neque posuere. Ullamcorper odio nunc wisi posuere. Pede est vestibulum, eu nunc pharetra, id maecenas accumsan quam faucibus luctus, habitasse vel sagittis eu convallis, urna dolor. Ac dolor ac tellus libero quis lacinia, justo elit vel quis, vestibulum viverra pellentesque sit. Quis tortor ullamcorper amet magnis hymenaeos potenti, interdum mollis quam aliquam turpis nihil.
Last edited by Nibbida on Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Individual
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Re: kamma vipaka and sankharas

Post by Individual »

Nibbida wrote:Right. I understand the 12 links.

So if I understand correctly, kamma vipaka are the literal consequences of intentional actions, but the sankharas is the tendency of actions to facilitate other unskillful action in the future?

Thanks for your patience.
Sankhara is the mechanism which puts together our consciousness, that is, the particular arrangement of our aspirations, which can be skillful or unskillful.

Is that maybe what's confusing about it, that it precedes consciousness? Sankhara might be compared to the sub-conscious mind in western psychology, if you think of the sub-conscious mind as being conditioned by ignorance and being the source of higher-level consciousness.
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Re: kamma vipaka and sankharas

Post by mikenz66 »

Sankhāra is used to mean several different things in different contexts. This summary from Ven. Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary might be helpful in avoiding confusing and/or interpreting it too restrictively.

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... kh%C4%81ra" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sankhāra: This term has, according to its context, different shades of meaning, which should be carefully distinguished.

I To its most frequent usages see: foll. 1-4 the general term 'construction' may be applied, with the qualifications required by the context. This term may refer either to the act of 'forming or to the passive state of 'having been formed' or to both.

1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination, paticcasamuppāda, sankhāra has the active aspect, 'forming, and signifies kamma, i.e. advantageous or disadvantageous intentional activity cetanā of body kāya-s speech vacī-s or mind citta or mano-s This definition occurs, e.g. at S. XII, 2, 27. For s.: in this sense, the word 'kamma-construction' has been coined by the author. In other passages, in the same context, s. is defined by reference to a meritorious kammic-constructions puññ'ābhisankhāra b disadvantageous k. apuññ'abhisankhāra c imperturbable k. āneñj'ābhisankhāra e.g. in S. XII, 51; D. 33. This threefold division covers kammic activity in all spheres of existence: the meritorious kammic-constructions extend to the sense-and the fine-material sphere, the disadvantageous ones only to the sense-sphere, and the 'imperturbable' only to the immaterial sphere.

2. The aforementioned three terms, kāya, vacī- and citta-s are sometimes used in quite a different sense, namely as 1 bodily function, i.e. in-and-out-breathing e.g. M. 10, 2 verbal function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking, 3 mental-function, i.e. feeling and perception e.g. M. 44. See nirodhasamāpatti.

3. It also denotes the 4th group of existence sankhāra-khandha and includes all 'mental constructions' whether they belong to 'kammically forming' consciousness or not. See khandha Tab. II. and S. XXII, 56, 79.

4. It occurs further in the sense of anything formed sankhata and conditioned, and includes all things whatever in the world, all phenomena of existence. This meaning applies, e.g. to the well-known passage,;All constructions are impermanent... subject to suffering; sabbe sankhāra aniccā dukkhā In that context, however, s. is subordinate to the still wider and all-embracing term dhamma thing; for dhamma includes also the Unformed or Unconditioned Element asankhata-dhātu i.e. Nibbāna e.g. in sabbe, dhammā all things are without a self;.

II sankhāra also means sometimes 'intentional effort', e.g. in the formula of the roads to power iddhi-pāda, in sasankhāra and asankhāra-parinibbāyī see: anāgāmī, and in the Abhidhamma terms asankhārika and sasankhārika-citta i.e. without effort = spontaneously, and with effort = prompted.

In Western literature, in English as well as in German, sankhāra is sometimes mistranslated by 'subconscious latent tendencies' or similarly e.g Prof Beckh:,unterbewußte Bildekräfte,; i.e. subconscious formative forces. This misinterpretation derives perhaps from a similar usage in non-Buddhist Sanskrit literature, and is entirely inapplicable to the connotations of the term in Pāli Buddhism, as listed above under I, 1-4. For instance, within the dependent origination, s. is neither subconscious nor a mere tendency, but is a fully conscious and active kammic intention. In the context of the 5 groups of existence see: above I, 3, a very few of the factors from the group of mental constructions sankhāra-khandha are also present as properties of subconsciousness see: Tab. I-III, but are of course not restricted to it, nor are they mere latent tendencies.
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Re: kamma vipaka and sankharas

Post by Individual »

Thanks for the resource, Mikenz.

A question, though: If sankhara is "fully conscious", why does it seem to be so elusive for non-Buddhists and how is this full consciousness of sankhara distinguished from vinnanna?
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Re: kamma vipaka and sankharas

Post by mikenz66 »

Individual wrote:Thanks for the resource, Mikenz.

A question, though: If sankhara is "fully conscious", why does it seem to be so elusive for non-Buddhists and how is this full consciousness of sankhara distinguished from vinnanna?
I don't really understand your question. The khandhas are a method of classification, not "things", so non-Buddhists just don't use that classification.

You might find the several pages of discussion of khandha useful: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... tm#khandha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some writers on Buddhism who have not understood that the five khandha are just classificatory groupings, have conceived them as compact entities 'heaps', 'bundles', while actually, as stated above, the groups never exist as such, i.e. they never occur in a simultaneous totality of all their constituents. Also those single constituents of a group which are present in any given body-and-mind process, are of an evanescent nature, and so also their varying combinations. Feeling, perception and mental constructions are only different aspects and functions of a single unit of consciousness. They are to consciousness what redness, softness, sweetness, etc. are to an apple and have as little separate existence as those qualities.
Mike
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Re: kamma vipaka and sankharas

Post by Individual »

mikenz66 wrote:
Individual wrote:Thanks for the resource, Mikenz.

A question, though: If sankhara is "fully conscious", why does it seem to be so elusive for non-Buddhists and how is this full consciousness of sankhara distinguished from vinnanna?
I don't really understand your question. The khandhas are a method of classification, not "things", so non-Buddhists just don't use that classification.

You might find the several pages of discussion of khandha useful: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... tm#khandha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some writers on Buddhism who have not understood that the five khandha are just classificatory groupings, have conceived them as compact entities 'heaps', 'bundles', while actually, as stated above, the groups never exist as such, i.e. they never occur in a simultaneous totality of all their constituents. Also those single constituents of a group which are present in any given body-and-mind process, are of an evanescent nature, and so also their varying combinations. Feeling, perception and mental constructions are only different aspects and functions of a single unit of consciousness. They are to consciousness what redness, softness, sweetness, etc. are to an apple and have as little separate existence as those qualities.
Mike
So, the five khandhas are not actually khandhas; they are merely called khandhas.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: kamma vipaka and sankharas

Post by mikenz66 »

Individual wrote: So, the five khandhas are not actually khandhas; they are merely called khandhas.
Yes, as I understand it, it's just a way of classifying phenomena. We are not "made out of khandhas" in the sense that we could say that our body is "made out of atoms".

Mike
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Re: kamma vipaka and sankharas

Post by Individual »

mikenz66 wrote:
Individual wrote: So, the five khandhas are not actually khandhas; they are merely called khandhas.
Yes, as I understand it, it's just a way of classifying phenomena. We are not "made out of khandhas" in the sense that we could say that our body is "made out of atoms".

Mike
If they aren't describing real things, what is their relevance to anything? Literally -- their relevance to any thing.

It's a classification system... which classifies what? Terms created within the system itself, in order to create objects to classify? What's the use in that?
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Re: kamma vipaka and sankharas

Post by mikenz66 »

Individual wrote: If they aren't describing real things, what is their relevance to anything? Literally -- their relevance to any thing.

It's a classification system... which classifies what? Terms created within the system itself, in order to create objects to classify? What's the use in that?
The way I see it, the instructions in the Suttas are designed to help us "slice up" our nama-rupa in various ways.
In some Suttas it's done by Khandas:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .mend.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Form, O monks, is not-self; ... Feeling, .. Perception, ... Mental formations, ... Consciousness, ...
Some by elements ("properties" in this translation):
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... l#sn27.009" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Monks, any desire-passion with regard to the earth property is a defilement of the mind. Any desire-passion with regard to the liquid property... the fire property... the wind property... the space property... the consciousness property is a defilement of the mind. When, with regard to these six bases, the defilements of awareness are abandoned, then the mind is inclined to renunciation. The mind fostered by renunciation feels malleable for the direct knowing of those qualities worth realizing."
Some by sense bases:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"What do you think, Malunkyaputta: the forms cognizable via the eye that are unseen by you — that you have never before seen, that you don't see, and that are not to be seen by you: Do you have any desire or passion or love there?"
"No, lord."
"The sounds cognizable via the ear...
"The aromas cognizable via the nose...
"The flavors cognizable via the tongue...
"The tactile sensations cognizable via the body...
"The ideas cognizable via the intellect ...
However it is done, the aim is to realise it all as anatta (which is also NOT a THING!).

Mike
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