Meditation Influence Diagram

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:35 am

Greetings Tilt,

Yes, but the link I suggested needs to be explicitly referenced unless the likes of teachers such as Vens. Gnanananda, Punnaji etc. be discriminated against in the realisation of Travis' objective...

Travis wrote:An illustration of the dissemination of ideas among prominent figures in the Theravada tradition, with special emphasis on the study of meditation.

Their omission would be discrimination because their omission would infer that "dissemination of ideas" "on the study of meditation" is only valid if it comes from a flesh-and-bone mentor/guide/teacher under a formal model of "lineage".

Anyway, I've provided a link to the reasoning behind my statement. What Travis does with it, and if/how he chooses to represent it, is up to him.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:47 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Yes, but the link I suggested needs to be explicitly referenced unless the likes of teachers such as Vens. Gnanananda, Punnaji etc. be discriminated against in the realisation of Travis' objective...

Travis wrote:An illustration of the dissemination of ideas among prominent figures in the Theravada tradition, with special emphasis on the study of meditation.

Metta,
Retro. :)

See: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... index.html

From memory of the newsletters I used to get from his Washington DC center back in the late 60's and 70's, his study and teachings of meditation was drawing not just from the suttas alone. There are enough echos of the Burmese traditions in his Mindfulness in Plain English book and he told me via a brief correspondence that I had with him in the early 70's that Ven Nyanaponika's THE HEART OF BUDDHIST MEDITATION was excellent, which suggest hints of what influenced him.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:49 am

Greetings Tilt,

I don't understand what you're getting at with the link.

Are you suggesting that there's an opportunity to add Visuddhimagga/Buddhaghosa or other texts to the list?

Or are you confusing Gnanananda with Gunaratna?

Kiribathgoda Gnanananda Thero
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiribathgo ... anda_Thero

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby Travis » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:59 am

Thanks all!
Hey Retro, great suggestion. Do you have any better background info other than the same blurb that is repeated all over the internet about him?
retrofuturist wrote:Their omission would be discrimination because their omission would infer that "dissemination of ideas" "on the study of meditation" is only valid if it comes from a flesh-and-bone mentor/guide/teacher under a formal model of "lineage".

See below.
LonesomeYogurt wrote:Why is Gunaratana not connected to anyone?


If there are others that people would like me to add just give me some help/info, I am not purposefully trying to exclude anyone.
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:01 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Or are you confusing Gnanananda with Gunaratna?
Of course I am.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:44 am

Greetings Travis,

No concerns about active discrimination from me, just so long as you're aware that the lineage method may inherently involve passive discrimination if not handled carefully... but you seem to be across it. (I'll have a look at the Gunaratna video when I get a chance - I don't have access just at the moment. UPDATE: I have now seen the video, it would seem that the good monk falls in the same category as the two monks I mentioned in terms of who/what he takes as teacher).

The only extra info on Kiribathgoda Gnanananda Thero that comes to mind other than Wikipedia, is via this Blog Entry by Theravadin - http://tinyurl.com/mahamevnawa - which should go some way as to making clear why I think it is very important that the Sutta Pitaka be acknowledged as a direct teacher for those who recognise it and identify with it as such.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby Mr Man » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:09 am

Hi Travis
I think it may be worth considering naming your project/diagram something like "connections" rather than lineage. I think the term lineage is rather misleading.
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:28 am

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:
Or are you confusing Gnanananda with Gunaratna?
Of course I am.

The point still stands that in my view it would be ludicrous to say that some particular person is a "direct disciples of the Buddha/Suttas" and others are not.

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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:04 am

Greetings Mike,

Isn't it for the individual to define and explain their own influences?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:28 am

Sure. They can say what they like. I'm just expressing my opinion that all the above mentioned practice according to the suttas + various other influences. I know you think there is something useful about searching for dividing lines between the the "various other influences" but, as you know, I don't. Of course, one can discuss how this or that person seems to be more or less influenced by this or that, but in my view the Dhamma has been preserved by 2500 years of live Sangha, and all the above-mentioned are inextricably influenced by that.

It seems to me that the point of this thread was to discuss some of the major ways that this preservation continues.

:anjali:
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:50 am

Greetings,

mikenz66 wrote:It seems to me that the point of this thread was to discuss some of the major ways that this preservation continues.

Yes, which is why I mention Vens. Gnanananda, Punnaji etc. who are involved in such preservation even though they don't fit into the original schematic in terms of taking the other monks listed thus far as teachers.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby tsurezuregusa » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:02 pm

Hello,

I am not able to open the pdf-file. It says, it is broken. Does anyone else encounter the same problem? And has a solution.

Kind regards,
Florian
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Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Postby Buckwheat » Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:07 pm

tsurezuregusa wrote:Hello,

I am not able to open the pdf-file. It says, it is broken. Does anyone else encounter the same problem? And has a solution.

Kind regards,
Florian

I have the same problem, but no ideas for a solution.
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Meditation Influence Diagram

Postby Travis » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:57 pm

Buckwheat wrote:
tsurezuregusa wrote:Hello,

I am not able to open the pdf-file. It says, it is broken. Does anyone else encounter the same problem? And has a solution.

Kind regards,
Florian

I have the same problem, but no ideas for a solution.


Not sure what is going on with the broken pdf. Here is a fresh copy with a new name for the sake of clarity of intent. It is only slightly different than v2. I listened to a talk from Analayo where he mentions having used the "Goenka technique" for a number of years. This version reflects that one addition.
Attachments
Meditation Influence Diagram-v3.pdf
Small change between v2>v3 Goenka is included as an influence for Analayo.
(82.03 KiB) Downloaded 44 times
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Re: Meditation Influence Diagram

Postby tsurezuregusa » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:07 am

Hi Travis,

thanks for making the lineage diagram accessible again!

I have a question to all: Under the Mingun Jetavan Sayadaw we both find Mahasi Sayadaw and Soma Thera and Kheminda Thera. Are these two the Venerables that critized Mahasi Sayadaw and his "New Myanmar Satipaṭṭhānā Method"?

Kind regards,
Florian
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Re: Meditation Influence Diagram

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:11 am

Hi Tsurezuregusa,
tsurezuregusa wrote:I have a question to all: Under the Mingun Jetavan Sayadaw we both find Mahasi Sayadaw and Soma Thera and Kheminda Thera. Are these two the Venerables that critized Mahasi Sayadaw and his "New Myanmar Satipaṭṭhānā Method"?

The Venerables Kheminda and Soma mentioned here:
Satipaṭṭhāna Vipassanā: Criticisms and Replies
Do seem to be the same as the Venerable Kheminda and Soma mentioned, for example, here:
http://pathpress.wordpress.com/2010/08/ ... d-nibbana/

Both the criticisms of Mahasi Sayadaw from Ven Kheminda and the book on PathPress involve quite technical discussions of the Commentaries.

:anjali:
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Re: Meditation Influence Diagram

Postby tsurezuregusa » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:37 am

I enjoyed reading Satipaṭṭhāna Vipassanā: Criticisms and Replies very much. I am quite fond of technical discussions.

But, did these two, Soma Thera and Kheminda Thera, really study under Mingun Jetavan Sayadaw? Why then would they critize Mahasi Sayadaw? Assuming Mahasi's teaching is in line with the Mingun Sayadaw.

Kind regards,
Florian
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Re: Meditation Influence Diagram

Postby tsurezuregusa » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:05 am

Addionally, does anyone know of a connection between Mahasi Sayadaw and Webu Sayadaw?

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