Bhikkhunis - Restoration

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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mikenz66
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Re: Bhikkhunis - Restoration

Post by mikenz66 »

I'm certainly supportive of Bhikkhuni ordination.

However, JC does have a point about the pitfalls involved in trying to figure out the dynamics of other societies, and who exactly is or isn't "liberated". There are clearly serious gender-inequality problems in all countries and, as JC alludes to, women in different countries appear to have different priorities when it comes to addressing them.

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Re: Bhikkhunis - Restoration

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Fede wrote:This is nothing to do with women's lib or granting the same kind of equality to Asian women as western women have.
it's about re-instating and maintaining a rightful lineage and tradition of Buddhist nuns.
oh but it does as this topic isnt one asian women seem to keen on bringing up, it's mainly one taken up by western monastics and western female buddhists and the main oposistion seems to come from asian monastics. though i have met thai monks who are in suport of the bhikkhuni movement it seems a topic they only discuss with westerners. make all the nuns you want but as long as the western lay buddhists keep not being the main suporters of monastics and asian lay buddhists are, we are pretty much left up to their cultural wants and needs.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Bhikkhunis - Restoration

Post by jcsuperstar »

p.s. Ajahn Sujato is pretty awesome in my opinion and i wish i could be there for this.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Bhikkhunis - Restoration

Post by DNS »

jcsuperstar wrote:
Fede wrote:This is nothing to do with women's lib or granting the same kind of equality to Asian women as western women have.
it's about re-instating and maintaining a rightful lineage and tradition of Buddhist nuns.
oh but it does as this topic isnt one asian women seem to keen on bringing up, it's mainly one taken up by western monastics and western female buddhists and the main oposistion seems to come from asian monastics. though i have met thai monks who are in suport of the bhikkhuni movement it seems a topic they only discuss with westerners. make all the nuns you want but as long as the western lay buddhists keep not being the main suporters of monastics and asian lay buddhists are, we are pretty much left up to their cultural wants and needs.
Maybe it just appears that Asian women are not bringing it up, but it may have more to do with that they feel they cannot bring it up for fear of being ostracized by family or community. Or maybe they are bringing it up, but there are not enough reports about it.

I know that in Thailand it is virtually impossible to fully ordain as bhikkhuni. Only Dhammananda Bhikkhuni and a few others have done so. The Thai government has allowed her and a few other nuns at her temple, but I heard that they placed a limit (at least for the moment) of no more.

There are currently several hundred fully ordained bhikkhunis and most are Asian, not "Western" born, with the most probably being from Sri Lanka and living in Sri Lanka. But admittedly there is a sizeable percentage (though not majority) that are Western born.
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Re: Bhikkhunis - Restoration

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jcsuperstar wrote:make all the nuns you want but as long as the western lay buddhists keep not being the main supporters of monastics and asian lay buddhists are, we are pretty much left up to their cultural wants and needs.
This is true. We "Westerners" need to learn to support the bhikkhunis in full and in every way. I visited a bhikkhuni monastery in the San Francisco Bay area and the supporters were American born and the Thai immigrant community. By far, the vast majority of their support came from the Thai immigrant community, including food dana and other forms of dana.

Convert Buddhists are not used to the idea of going to the temple on an almost daily basis for providing food dana and other support. It is something we need to learn to do or possibly make other arrangements.
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Re: Bhikkhunis - Restoration

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Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi, Education for Buddhist Nuns

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/1577389" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
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Re: Bhikkhunis - Restoration

Post by Jason »

Great video. It made me miss Ajahn Prasert and Ayya Tathaaloka, who I haven't seen since I moved to Portland, OR.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: Bhikkhunis - Restoration

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I heard about the group in Portland. Dont they also sometimes invite nuns to teach? Is it going to be a monks' monastery eventually (perhaps)? California seems to be the best place for nuns right now, it seems...
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Bhikkhunis - Restoration

Post by Jason »

gavesako wrote:I heard about the group in Portland. Dont they also sometimes invite nuns to teach? Is it going to be a monks' monastery eventually (perhaps)? California seems to be the best place for nuns right now, it seems...
Yes, the Portland Friends of the Dhamma often hosts a variety of teachers in the Ajahn Chah/Ajahn Sumedho tradition, both monks and nuns (e.g., Ajahn Sundara was here from June 11th – 13th and Ajahn Jayasaro will be here June 23rd).

AFAIK, they were trying to get a monastery going, and they had a a couple of monks stay in at temporary residence for a few months last year, but I haven't heard anything about it recently.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: Bhikkhunis - Restoration

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Here is a bhikkhuni monastery in northern California that is just getting off the ground (might be the one you are referring to?):

http://awakening-forest-hermitage.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Seminar: Bhikkuni Ordination for Nuns-Thai Tradition

Post by mikenz66 »

TheDhamma wrote:Thanks. It will be interesting to read the transcript of the talks, if available next month.
The talk can be heard now at:
http://bswa.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads ... 63&lid=843" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Bhikkhunis - Restoration

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Why a Bhikkhuni Seminar? At BSWA? By Ajahn Vayama

"At Dhammasara we are currently 10 precept nuns, which means we are of the same status in the sangha as a novice monk. For official & formal transactions of the sangha, a novice monk or nun is not considered to be a full member of the sangha. When we started Dhammasara in 1998 it wasn't possible for nuns of the theravada tradition to take ordination beyond the status of novice. Since that time modern scholarship & a change in attitudes around gender issues has led to a successful movement to make higher ordination possible for nuns in the theravadan tradition. A higher ordained nun is called a bhikkhuni & has the equivalent status in the sangha to a bhikkhu - a full member of the sangha. A bhikkhuni keeps 311 rules - 304 rules relating to personal conduct & the remaining 7 rules relating to ways of settling disputes in the sangha.

At Dhammasara we have always kept a level of sila similar to that of a bhikkhuni but not as a result of formal ordination. Now we are interested in formalising our position within the sangha & this seminar is an opportunity for us to inform you of our aspirations & to answer any specific questions you may have about this.

We can explain to you why this is important to us personally as 10 precept nuns, and hopefully to you as members of the lay community. Ajahn Sujato will speak about it from the legalistic vinaya perspective, from the view of modern scholarship, and from the global perspective.

We hope this seminar gives you the opportunity to be well informed & to feel positive about being part of a process which we hope will establish bhikkhuni ordination in the Theravada tradition for women in Australia.

Through the quality of your generous ongoing material & spiritual support we are able to approach bhikkhuni ordination confident that we can successfully uphold the standard of sila that goes with it. Higher ordination would allow us to be full members of the sangha for the purpose of official & formal sangha transactions within the sangha of bhikkhunis, and in relation to the bhikkhus - the monks - and would empower us to be able to live according to the rules & traditions that were laid down specifically for women by Lord Buddha 2,600 years ago. We view the opportunity to take higher ordination as a very precious & positive move for both ourselves & for the whole of the Theravadan Buddhist community world-wide. But in order to evolve in this direction we need to know you as the lay community are happy to support this move."
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Seminar: Bhikkuni Ordination for Nuns-Thai Tradition

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mikenz66 wrote:
TheDhamma wrote:Thanks. It will be interesting to read the transcript of the talks, if available next month.
The talk can be heard now at:
http://bswa.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads ... 63&lid=843" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:thanks:
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Re: Bhikkhunis - Restoration

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gavesako wrote:Why a Bhikkhuni Seminar? At BSWA? By Ajahn Vayama

Through the quality of your generous ongoing material & spiritual support we are able to approach bhikkhuni ordination confident that we can successfully uphold the standard of sila that goes with it. Higher ordination would allow us to be full members of the sangha for the purpose of official & formal sangha transactions within the sangha of bhikkhunis, and in relation to the bhikkhus - the monks - and would empower us to be able to live according to the rules & traditions that were laid down specifically for women by Lord Buddha 2,600 years ago. We view the opportunity to take higher ordination as a very precious & positive move for both ourselves & for the whole of the Theravadan Buddhist community world-wide. But in order to evolve in this direction we need to know you as the lay community are happy to support this move."
:thumbsup:

:twothumbsup:
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Re: Bhikkhunis - Restoration

Post by gavesako »

This article is a few years old and focuses specifically on the Thai society:


Old Pillar, New Possibilities:
What the Revival of the Bhikkhuni Sangha Contributes
to Thai Women and Society

By Nissara Horayangura
(Unpublished paper submitted in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the
M.A. degree in Southeast Asian Studies, Chulalongkorn University, Bangkok, Thailand)

http://bhikkhuni.net/new_page_6.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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