Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

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ground
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by ground »

Hanzze wrote:That is something you might should think about.
If there is belief in thinking, thinking being the home of consciousness, that advice presented by consciousness to itself may affirm consciousness' home.
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Hanzze
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by Hanzze »

You can think about how it could be for eons, when ever you don't start to put the eightfold path as a whole into action, homelessness will just remain a thought, followed by the next, maintained from the last... That's maybe the idea of those who like to last till the end and such approach is good to maintain ground for it.
As long as we believe that our actions have no results, we will not be touched by victims and harm. It's called well conditioned ignorance of the ignorance.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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ground
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by ground »

Hanzze wrote:You can think about how it could be for eons, when ever you don't start to put the eightfold path as a whole into action, homelessness will just remain a thought, followed by the next, maintained from the last... That's maybe the idea of those who like to last till the end and such approach is good to maintain ground for it.
As long as we believe that our actions have no results, we will not be touched by victims and harm. It's called well conditioned ignorance of the ignorance.
No need to stress the religious aspects. The main portion of buddhism certainly appeals to consciousness' need of a home.
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by mikenz66 »

ground wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
ground wrote:From a psychological perspective devotion to (an imagined person, ghost or deity or god) may appear as an antidot to some sort of self-aggrandisation. No doubt that it may be helpful or even necessary for some.
Devotion to the Buddha, dhamma, & saṅgha has nothing to do with devotion to "an imagined person, ghost, or deity, or god."
This may be how you want to perceive it. From a pyschological perspective - and this I referred to - it may appear differently.
And this is the interesting point, isn't it? How best to understand the Dhamma? To what extent does analysis in terms of models from philosophy, psychology, and various other sciences, miss the points? Is faith just an expedient psychological technique that helps us to "engage with life", or is it an essential part of total liberation?

:anjali:
Mike
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Hanzze
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by Hanzze »

ground wrote:
Hanzze wrote:You can think about how it could be for eons, when ever you don't start to put the eightfold path as a whole into action, homelessness will just remain a thought, followed by the next, maintained from the last... That's maybe the idea of those who like to last till the end and such approach is good to maintain ground for it.
As long as we believe that our actions have no results, we will not be touched by victims and harm. It's called well conditioned ignorance of the ignorance.
No need to stress the religious aspects. The main portion of buddhism certainly appeals to consciousness' need of a home.
The final, yes. Something that goes hand in hand. Rarely the homelessness of the consciousness is before all other homelessness. And it can not be, is not possible that there is a consciousnesses homelessness when someone still remains in a home still lives with taking what is not given, still has intention to switch on a switch.
The path given and explained by the Buddha does not start with the aim and if we have reached an aim that does not include its natural effects, we run around with sap wood. This sutta has its reason: Uninstructed

The path does not start with that, that is a branch not easy one would be able to reach and therefore not taught as it would give strange ideas for people not able to let go of unnecessary things.
It's a matter of patient and a matter of conviction that one rather changes the conditions step by step as to change the path (Dhamma) to the conditions one is found in. We know it from history, we know all the alternative ways, in cold countries, in a society that does not easy understand such ways... and it fits well to modern arrogance.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by Cittasanto »

danieLion wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
danieLion wrote: Re: The MEDITATION comments. While knowing Peacock thinks "meditation" is the worst translation of the practices the Buddha taught has some validity, you'll find him (and Batchelor) using the term all the time--not to mention, they both meditate frequently.

metta
Hi Danial,
do you care to explain this validity?

If you are thinking of the term Bhavana, do note that is not the term I bring up, or the term that should be translated as meditation (my mentioning was in responce to the claim that there is "no word for meditation", which is false)
Hi Cittasanto,

Did I claim there's "no word for meditation"? If I did, that was dumb of me because my Pali skills and knowledge of the Pali tradition are minimal. Peacock's averse to it because he thinks it alludes to Christian traditions. It seems like a personal problem of his to me (he hates the use of the word "enlightenment" too, saying, "That was a political movement is Europe.")
I thought you were saying their statement has some validity? (underlined in above quote).
I though the term was used because of the period called "the Enlightenmnet" where scientific advances... were happening quite fast?
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by Nyana »

ground wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
ground wrote:From a psychological perspective devotion to (an imagined person, ghost or deity or god) may appear as an antidot to some sort of self-aggrandisation. No doubt that it may be helpful or even necessary for some.
Devotion to the Buddha, dhamma, & saṅgha has nothing to do with devotion to "an imagined person, ghost, or deity, or god."
This may be how you want to perceive it. From a pyschological perspective - and this I referred to - it may appear differently.
I'd suggest that it's primarily about contemplative practice, respect, relationship, communication, and community.
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ground
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by ground »

Hanzze wrote:And it can not be, is not possible ...
What thinks and writes this?
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ground
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by ground »

ground wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
ground wrote:From a psychological perspective devotion to (an imagined person, ghost or deity or god) may appear as an antidot to some sort of self-aggrandisation. No doubt that it may be helpful or even necessary for some.
Devotion to the Buddha, dhamma, & saṅgha has nothing to do with devotion to "an imagined person, ghost, or deity, or god."
This may be how you want to perceive it. From a pyschological perspective - and this I referred to - it may appear differently.
mikenz66 wrote:And this is the interesting point, isn't it? How best to understand the Dhamma? To what extent does analysis in terms of models from philosophy, psychology, and various other sciences, miss the points? Is faith just an expedient psychological technique that helps us to "engage with life", or is it an essential part of total liberation?

:anjali:
Mike
Those inclined to religious thought will hold the latter to be true and mean "belief". Without mere faith that one can do something one will not undertake it.
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by gavesako »

A skeptical/secular Western Buddhist writes about the idea of rebirth:
How Buddhist Rebirth Changes Over Time

ONE OF THE FACTS about the foundation texts of Buddhism that most people don't seem to have taken in is that rebirth is an idea with a history. The idea did not spring into being fully formed. ....
Rebirth is quite obviously an important part of Buddhism in the earliest records we have. The idea that rebirth is somehow in the background, or was added later, is insupportable based on current evidence. That rebirth no longer seems plausible is an entirely different proposition. And one that creates a dilemma that I have no wish to underplay. We have yet to really work out the implications of this news, though it is the news. Understanding that our doctrines have always been quite changeable and responsive to social change, seems to me to be an important factor in loosening our grip on traditional doctrines with a view to letting them go. Everything changes. Resisting changes causes suffering. The only way forward for Buddhism is, well, forward.

http://jayarava.blogspot.com/2012/06/ho ... -time.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-> So according to Jayarava, the only way is "forward", but if personal continuation after death (rebirth) is now implausible/impossible -- presumably due to scientific progress that modern society has achieved -- there is nothing in the future to be looking forward to because one's personal experience only goes as far as physical death. In other words, there is no "forward" for the existing individual at all.
:shrug:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by DNS »

I agree Bhante. And where does scientific evidence refute rebirth? I have not seen any such evidence. There may be no scientific evidence for rebirth, but neither is there for its negation.

(And for skeptics: yes I know the burden of proof is on the claim of rebirth, but that still does not negate the possibility.)
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by Alex123 »

David N. Snyder wrote:I agree Bhante. And where does scientific evidence refute rebirth? I have not seen any such evidence. There may be no scientific evidence for rebirth, but neither is there for its negation.
The evidence seems to point that brain is required cause for mental states. Even behaviour seems to be dependent on functioning of certain areas of the brain (ex: frontal and temporal lobes).

If certain part of the brain is damaged, certain mental functioning is damaged. If another part of the brain is damaged, another type of mental behavior or consciousness changes.

If frontal lobes are damaged, then one can have: concentration difficulties, mood swings, changes in personality and social behavior...
If parietal lobes are damaged, then one can have: loose the ability to name objects, count, and weaken visual perception...
If temporal lobes get damaged, then a person: can become very aggressive, change sexual interest, become religious...
If occipital lobes get damaged, then a person: can hallucinate, loose ability to read/write...
http://www.headinjury.com/brainmap.htm#map" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If person drinks alcohol, then consciousness alters... This is very empiric, plain and common example.

Not only is the brain required for 5 sense consciousness, but it appears to be responsible for behavior as well.

And when the brain ceases.... All mental functioning does. So how can rebirth occur? What travels from one brain to another? How do two brains connect?
I believe in rebirth, but it is faith.
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by Cittasanto »

Alex123 wrote: Not only is the brain required for 5 sense consciousness, but it appears to be responsible for behavior as well.

And when the brain ceases.... All mental functioning does. So how can rebirth occur? What travels from one brain to another? How do two brains connect?
I believe in rebirth, but it is faith.
Hi Alex
correct me if I am wrong, but the body does have a form of electrical current also, a being is not just matter.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by nowheat »

gavesako wrote:So according to Jayarava, the only way is "forward", but if personal continuation after death (rebirth) is now implausible/impossible -- presumably due to scientific progress that modern society has achieved -- there is nothing in the future to be looking forward to because one's personal experience only goes as far as physical death. In other words, there is no "forward" for the existing individual at all.
There is no forward for "the existing individual at all" if there *is* rebirth -- surely that's what the Buddha taught.

:namaste:
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by DNS »

Alex123 wrote: Not only is the brain required for 5 sense consciousness, but it appears to be responsible for behavior as well.
Jelly fish have no brains http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelly_fish#Nervous_system" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike, was a headless chicken who performed in side-shows in the 1940s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_the_Headless_Chicken" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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