Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

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Alex123
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by Alex123 »

Cittasanto wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Not only is the brain required for 5 sense consciousness, but it appears to be responsible for behavior as well.

And when the brain ceases.... All mental functioning does. So how can rebirth occur? What travels from one brain to another? How do two brains connect?
I believe in rebirth, but it is faith.
Hi Alex
correct me if I am wrong, but the body does have a form of electrical current also, a being is not just matter.
Could be. But are you saying that this electrical current somehow can be transferred from two bodies?


Electricity is part of physicalism. Sure.
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Alex123
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

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David N. Snyder wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Not only is the brain required for 5 sense consciousness, but it appears to be responsible for behavior as well.
Jelly fish have no brains http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelly_fish#Nervous_system" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And how much intelligence do they have? They do have "nerves" so rudimentary physical basis for basic consciousness is there.

"but employ a loose network of nerves, located in the epidermis, which is called a "nerve net". A jellyfish detects various stimuli including the touch of other animals via this nerve net, which then transmits impulses both throughout the nerve net and around a circular nerve ring, through the rhopalial lappet, located at the rim of the jellyfish body, to other nerve cells."
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Cittasanto
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by Cittasanto »

Alex123 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Not only is the brain required for 5 sense consciousness, but it appears to be responsible for behavior as well.

And when the brain ceases.... All mental functioning does. So how can rebirth occur? What travels from one brain to another? How do two brains connect?
I believe in rebirth, but it is faith.
Hi Alex
correct me if I am wrong, but the body does have a form of electrical current also, a being is not just matter.
Could be. But are you saying that this electrical current somehow can be transferred from two bodies?


Electricity is part of physicalism. Sure.
I am not saying anything is or isn't so, but there is more to us than just organs and physical components.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by Cittasanto »

David N. Snyder wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Not only is the brain required for 5 sense consciousness, but it appears to be responsible for behavior as well.
Jelly fish have no brains http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelly_fish#Nervous_system" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike, was a headless chicken who performed in side-shows in the 1940s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_the_Headless_Chicken" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
don't forget this interesting case
http://www.mymultiplesclerosis.co.uk/mi ... brain.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the Mysterious brain.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Viscid
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by Viscid »

When people cite these examples of potential evidence to demonstrate that consciousness can function independent of the brain, it conveys a belief that there is something that isn't part of the material world pulling the strings of the marionette-- Which confuses me, because Buddhists traditionally try to discourage the belief in a soul, and yet that is exactly what you're proposing.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by DNS »

Viscid wrote:When people cite these examples of potential evidence to demonstrate that consciousness can function independent of the brain, it conveys a belief that there is something that isn't part of the material world pulling the strings of the marionette-- Which confuses me, because Buddhists traditionally try to discourage the belief in a soul, and yet that is exactly what you're proposing.
Not at all; just that scientific materialism does not have all of the answers and Buddhism is not classified within scientific materialism.
danieLion
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by danieLion »

Viscid wrote:When people cite these examples of potential evidence to demonstrate that consciousness can function independent of the brain, it conveys a belief that there is something that isn't part of the material world pulling the strings of the marionette-- Which confuses me, because Buddhists traditionally try to discourage the belief in a soul, and yet that is exactly what you're proposing.
Hi Viscid, Cittasanto, Dave, et al
Mind and Brain: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 63#p192913" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
metta
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by Cittasanto »

David N. Snyder wrote:
Viscid wrote:When people cite these examples of potential evidence to demonstrate that consciousness can function independent of the brain, it conveys a belief that there is something that isn't part of the material world pulling the strings of the marionette-- Which confuses me, because Buddhists traditionally try to discourage the belief in a soul, and yet that is exactly what you're proposing.
Not at all; just that scientific materialism does not have all of the answers and Buddhism is not classified within scientific materialism.
:anjali:

noting other things completely missed does not equate to citing examples of potential evidence.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
intex
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by intex »

Alex123 wrote:And when the brain ceases.... All mental functioning does. So how can rebirth occur? What travels from one brain to another? How do two brains connect?
I believe in rebirth, but it is faith.
Hello,

from within the first-person perspective I am unable to experience myself as an external object like a 'brain'. If you show me images of different brains, I am unable to tell you which is mine. What I want to say is that the coupling of my first-person perspective and some external object, like a particular brain, is certainly a fact, but there is no material reason why a particular brain amongst billions of brains should be 'my brain'. All brains are made out of food, they are all the same element-wise and all share a similar structure, and yet there is only one 'I' and the rest are 'others', i.e. the differences between brains are marginal and relative but the difference between 'I' and 'others' is absolute (we might change organs but never perspective). While I cannot tell the mechanics behind rebirth, the aforementioned inability to describe a brain as 'mine' by external examination might be a hint that it is indeed possible to 'wake up again'. So I share your faith.

Greetings
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by ground »

Alex123 wrote:And when the brain ceases.... All mental functioning does. So how can rebirth occur? What travels from one brain to another? How do two brains connect? I believe in rebirth, but it is faith.
How courageous ;)
danieLion
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by danieLion »

Hi Alex123,
Alex123 wrote:...the brain [is] required for 5 sense consciousness..."

Which part/parts of the brain do you think are necessary for five sense consciousness? And why did you leave a sense out?
Alex123 wrote:And when the brain ceases.... All mental functioning does.
How do you know all mental functioning ceases when the brain ceases?
Kind regards,
Daniel, :stirthepot:
danieLion
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by danieLion »

Hi Dave,
David N. Snyder wrote:Jelly fish have no brains http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelly_fish#Nervous_system" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Guess that depends what you mean by brain. Jellyfish do have invertebrate nervous systems and since they have extraordinarily long axons are a favorite vivisection candidate for brain scientists. Our current knowledge of the brain owes much to the jellyfish.
Kind regards.
Daniel
danieLion
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by danieLion »

Viscid wrote:When people cite these examples of potential evidence to demonstrate that consciousness can function independent of the brain, it conveys a belief that there is something that isn't part of the material world pulling the strings of the marionette-- Which confuses me, because Buddhists traditionally try to discourage the belief in a soul, and yet that is exactly what you're proposing.
Hi Viscid,
1) The belief that's conveyed is not that the something pulling the strings is non-material. Perhaps it is material. The belief that's conveyed is that we don't know what's causing the motion (which really hung Aristotle, and to a lesser extent, Descartes up). The precise mechanism cannot being know via sense experience, and doesn't need to be. All that is required to believe in (IMO, a step removed from actual faith in) re-birth is the assumption of personal continuity.

2) Do Buddhists really generally discourage belief in a soul? Which ones? Perhaps most of them just don't believe in the idea of the western or Christian soul? AFAIK, the Buddha never taught, "Thou shall not believe in a soul."

Plus, I don't think Buddhists are that easy to stereotype. Do you?

Kind regards,
Daniel
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Polar Bear
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by Polar Bear »

To what extent is this just wandering through the wilderness of views. transcend

:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Alex123
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Post by Alex123 »

danieLion wrote:
Alex123 wrote:And when the brain ceases.... All mental functioning does.
How do you know all mental functioning ceases when the brain ceases?
Kind regards,
Daniel, :stirthepot:
Partially it can be witnessed during life. If one drinks alcohol or takes drugs, mental functioning alters. If one slips, falls, and hits the head, one can pass out. Etc etc. Empirical things seem to point to such relationship.

A good example of which parts of brains do what, is at:
http://www.headinjury.com/brainmap.htm#map" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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