How common is stream entry?

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:00 pm

Hi Individual

Realizing Anatta and stream entry are not synonymous, no?

with metta

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Individual » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:48 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Individual

Realizing Anatta and stream entry are not synonymous, no?

with metta

Matheesha

No they aren't
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby kirk5a » Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:23 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Individual

Realizing Anatta and stream entry are not synonymous, no?

with metta

Matheesha

Why not?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby klqv » Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:59 pm

Individual wrote:This is an old discussion but if I can add to it: There are no such thing as stream-enterers; that is, "stream-entering persons." This is only a conventional expression
Not ultimately a "person" no but am I right that there is "ultimately" a set of skandhas that enter the path of vision?
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Individual » Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:57 pm

There is ultimately no person nor is there anything else that might even seem similar to "personhood." One could use various expressions, but it is still a conventional point of view. Outside points of view, there are no skandhas.

in the path of vision, one does not think even in terms of "this" or "that", because This vs. That is simply a more subtle version of Self vs. Other. This is self, that is other; this is self, those are others. Stream-enterers don't think this way. Overcoming self-view (sakkaya-ditthi) is an obstacle to stream-entry.

In this sense, you could say stream-entry is extremely rare, although ultimately there are no stream-enterers, because it is a process of non-becoming. If stream-entry were something one becomes, it would simply be another realm of samsara to pop in and out of.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby kirk5a » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:04 pm

Individual wrote: Outside points of view, there are no skandhas.

That is nihilism. If there are no skandhas other than point of view, then there are no fingers, and so how did these messages get typed out?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby appicchato » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:14 pm

...people...I would suspect may have problems with reality.

Don't we all?...
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby kirk5a » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:44 pm

appicchato wrote:
...people...I would suspect may have problems with reality.

Don't we all?...

Indeed. But as Ajahn Chah said "Don't make problems, then the world has none either."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Cloud » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:45 pm

The task begins when one gains the experiential insight of Anatta (no-self), a wisdom of itself that destroys two more fetters. One can never again uphold a view or doctrine of self, and is aligned toward the selfless state that is at the end of the enlightenment process. There may be many more Sotapannas than we may know, as they have a tendency to work "behind the scenes" for the benefit of others rather than proclaim any achievement or attainment; for they realize there is no "self" that applies to either. To the degree that we uphold a doctrine of self, we remain unawakened. At least that's my understanding.

Namaste
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Individual » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:36 pm

kirk5a wrote:
Individual wrote: Outside points of view, there are no skandhas.

That is nihilism. If there are no skandhas other than point of view, then there are no fingers, and so how did these messages get typed out?

It would be nihilism if it were fabricated and mused over in terms of self; it is not nihilism when it is experienced and used selflessly.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby kirk5a » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:41 pm

Individual wrote:It would be nihilism if it were fabricated and mused over in terms of self; it is not nihilism when it is experienced and used selflessly.

Then use it in answering my question, please.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Individual » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:46 pm

kirk5a wrote:
Individual wrote:It would be nihilism if it were fabricated and mused over in terms of self; it is not nihilism when it is experienced and used selflessly.

Then use it in answering my question, please.

Don't make problems :)
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby kirk5a » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:58 pm

Individual wrote:Don't make problems :)

Don't make views.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:18 pm

Hmm.. not very productive.

Let me put it like this:

Anatta (the understanding that there is no self in any 'real' sense) is understood at a stage of insight/nana called 'sammassana nana' - the knowledge of comprehension'. However this is not the stage at which stream entry is finally reached. It is finally reached at the point of magga-phala citta- which is the crescent of the vipassana process.

This process (from the start) can be understood in the below framework:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... gress.html

Hope that is more helpful. :anjali:

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby divine » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:12 am

Hello guys! I found this thread by a google search, and thought I'd chip in. I became a stream enterer a couple of months ago, allthough at the time I didn't know the term "stream enterer" nor the part about 7 rebirths. I find this idea... well... pleasing...

As for the topic of this thread, I have absolutely no idea how common stream entry is. But I can say something about MY experience.

My stream entry experience is hard to put in words, when I try it all comes out so... un-worthy. It sounds pretentious and insane. I'd rather not convey, if that's all right. The experience could easily be labelled temporary madness or imagination running wild, if I had not been lucky enough to have in my toolbox the ana pana technique and equanimity from Goenka Vipassana. The ana pana and equanimity is from my perspective an essential part. So I guess lots of people can have the possibility of stream entry without going all the way with it, because of the overload. At one point I got the impression that it was written, you know, like destined. But it might be my soiled mind adding to the experience.

In addition I find it weird that I reached this experience with so little meditation, all I have is a little vipassana and some intermediate yoga. How can this be? I have done a number of wholesome deeds, though, and have been practising equanimity in the daily life - not so much but a little. That's my background in few words.

Despite having reached this level of enlightenment there is so many things I don't know, for instance I had to learn the term "stream enterer" when I was reading up on buddhism on wikipedia. One major question that is yet unanswered to me (please answer if you know) is how can we really be sure that the stream enterer is guaranteed a maximum of 7 rebirths? What is the source of this information? I am sceptic to these institutionalised religion-like stuff, but I recognised enough from my experience with what I read on wikipedia to be ready to read the original scriptures.

Also this experience showed me what to do with my life, but not in detail, for instance I would like to have some guidance to meditation. I know it seems silly, becoming a stream enterer and wanting to be held hands like a child. But this is really new, and I think it could be useful to have a guide or a manual for newly made stream enterers. Or maybe this is to be found in the scriptures? In that case, which?

I have not told anyone I know about this, as I think it will become a burden on our relationship, and I can see no benefit of doing it. As I improve as a person they will have more benefit than if I just tell them.

PS. "I" is like... you know :quote: ;)
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Reductor » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:27 am

Hi divine,

Welcome to DW.

I suggest that you put aside any thoughts that you are a stream-winner and continue with practice. Such thoughts can cause you needless uncertainty about practice and the dhamma; they can also cause friction when expressed among other practitioners.

Just meditate, and study a bit. Seek a teacher if you think it is necessary (actually, everyone should have one if they are able to find a good person for that role).

Insights that reduce suffering are good, while those that increase clinging are not good. Keep that in mind.


:namaste:

P.S.

Just want to emphasis my good will toward you. And no, I'm not automatically doubting you or anything. I am trying to head off some of the troubles that attainment statements like your can cause, and without inadvertently producing them. Haha.

Anyway... Once again, welcome.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Ben » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:40 am

divine wrote:How can this be?

I don't mean to rain on your parade but...it probably isn't.
You need to consider whether you are just thinking that what is most likely a mundane experience as stream entry.
And you wouldn't be the first to do so.
I suggest that you continue to practice earnestly and to study Dhamma.
kind regards,

Ben
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:01 am

divine wrote:Hel.

Despite having reached this level of enlightenment
But are you sure you have reached any level of "enlightenment?" There are so many things that can mimic what we think "enlightenment" is. The best approach to "enlightenment" is that is just one more of which to let go. Anyway, good luck.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
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Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby divine » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:13 am

Why all this sceptism on a Buddhist discussion forum? I guess it all boils down to your belief: am I a liar, a ignorant or a stream enterer. Thanks for your input guys, but YES, I AM SURE!
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby bodom » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:26 am

Hi divine

What is the source of this information? I am sceptic to these institutionalised religion-like stuff, but I recognised enough from my experience with what I read on wikipedia to be ready to read the original scriptures.


This is a good a place as any to start:

Into the Stream: A Study Guide on the First Stage of Awakening
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... tream.html

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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