How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Reductor » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:27 am

divine wrote:Why all this sceptism on a Buddhist discussion forum? I guess it all boils down to your belief: am I a liar, a ignorant or a stream enterer. Thanks for your input guys, but YES, I AM SURE!


Scepticism is normal here. Don't take it personally. As it is, there have been many 'enlightened' beings dropping into the forum to declare that everyone here is wrong, wrong, wrong in their understanding of and approach to the dhamma. After a while, all claims about attainment puts people on edge.

This problem is in addition to the unverifiable nature of claims, along with the easily self-deluded nature of the human mind: people often believe themselves to be something more, or less, than they actually are.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:47 am

divine wrote:Why all this sceptism on a Buddhist discussion forum? I guess it all boils down to your belief: am I a liar, a ignorant or a stream enterer. Thanks for your input guys, but YES, I AM SURE!
Why all this skepticism? No one said you are a liar. As for being ignorant, you have admitted as much, and as for being sotapanna, having a really nifty experience that blows the socks off your sense of self, while being a really nifty experience (or set of experiences), does not necessarily make one a sotapanna, but you have gotten good advice here: don't tie oneself to any experience, don't let such an experience become a credential, and continue to do the practice. And as for "YES, I AM SURE," there is never, ever a need to lock oneself into adamantine surety. Awakening tends to be a bit more subtle.

But no need here to defend your claim. It will speak for itself. In the meantime, welcome to Dhamma Wheel, and please feel free to avail yourself of all that it has to offer.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby khlawng » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:48 am

divine wrote:PS. "I" is like... you know :quote: ;)


Seems like the concept of self is abandoned. Your post looks like you have gotten rid of doubt. I also assume you do not participate in wrongful rites and ceremonies.

If that is indeed the case, Saddhu Saddhu Saddhu! Now the real work begins. May you achieve Nibbana in this lifetime my friend.

P/S: Ignore the doubters, they are still mirred in vicikiccha, unable to move on.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:51 am

khlawng wrote:
P/S: Ignore the doubters, they are still mirred in vicikiccha, unable to move on.
You don't know that to be true.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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...---... How common is stream entry?

Postby divine » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:56 am

I know this has been talked about before, and I am sorry if I break some forum rules by doing this, but as a recent stream enterer I am curious to know:

Are you or do you know anyone who believe to be, AND you too believe to be, a stream enterer?

Lets accept the claims - leave sceptisism and discussion out of it. :toast:

Maybe it is too much to ask people with current or prior mental issues to refrain themselves from contributing, as they off course could just as easily become a stream enterer, but remember the situation of the easily self-deluded nature of the human mind. And the many 'enlightened' beings dropping into the forum to declare that everyone here is wrong, wrong, wrong in their understanding of and approach to the dhamma. (thanks Reductor <-- lots of good sceptisism and discussion going on here!)

Once again, so to be sure everyone gets the picture: I hope for this thread to be without discussion, a simple "I know of three living individuals" will suffice, even if you happen to be one of them. And let it be up to the author of the post to define the criteria, since there are some different ones, but feel free to share your definition. I truly believe such a thread will be of benefit, so don't clutter it.

For the sake of usefulness and your own liberation, be truthful. :twothumbsup:

Edit: It seemes the moderators merged the two threads, this post was originally the first post in a thread I created in the Open Dhamma forum, but apparantly because the contributors didn't stay on topic it was no point in having two of the same. Like someone said: This thread should be called "Why isn't stream entry common", while my failed attempt was to create a pure thread to easily get some overview of how common it is - in Open Dhamma, not Modern Theravada. Just so it's said. Edit 3: Paint RED!

:anjali:
Last edited by divine on Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:08 am, edited 3 times in total.
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Ben » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:59 am

divine wrote:Why all this sceptism on a Buddhist discussion forum?

No negativity. The advice has been to encourage the investigation of all all arisen states, and their nature - very keenly and very honestly. As I have inferred and Tilt has said - ordinary experiences can mimic awakening. We all need to take that advice on when such experiences occur.

divine wrote:I guess it all boils down to your belief:

Actually, it has nothing to do with belief.

divine wrote:am I a liar, a ignorant or a stream enterer. Thanks for your input guys, but YES, I AM SURE!

No one has imputed that you are a liar. And until we become arahants, we all suffer from ignorance and delusional thinking.

Anyway, welcome to Dhamma Wheel. And I hope in time that you will appreciate the advice and good will being shown to you.
with metta,

Ben
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:01 am

Over the past 44 years, I have known a number of individuals who are likely genuinely ariya, but the number of those who imagine they are ariya is far greater, and they tend to be far noisier.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby khlawng » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:02 am

tiltbillings wrote:
khlawng wrote:
P/S: Ignore the doubters, they are still mirred in vicikiccha, unable to move on.
You don't know that to be true.


My apologies. You are right.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby divine » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:06 am

Haha, I like this forum! I think I will fit right in, but then with another username, I already feel the pressure :hug:
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby khlawng » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:08 am

divine wrote:... I already feel the pressure :hug:


Oops, did you just slip back out of stream entry?
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:09 am

divine wrote: but then with another username,
Please clarify this statement.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby divine » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:18 am

Of course I can clarify! I understand why people don't talk about their stream entry, but if done anonymously there is some gain of doing it. And because I think I will find this forum useful I would like to keep hanging around, but not with the claim of beeing a stream enterer. You see?
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:25 am

divine wrote:Of course I can clarify! I understand why people don't talk about their stream entry, but if done anonymously there is some gain of doing it. And because I think I will find this forum useful I would like to keep hanging around, but not with the claim of beeing a stream enterer. You see?
If you want to change your user name, you need to contact one of the administrators. See the TOS #3.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Ben » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:27 am

divine wrote:Of course I can clarify! I understand why people don't talk about their stream entry, but if done anonymously there is some gain of doing it. And because I think I will find this forum useful I would like to keep hanging around, but not with the claim of beeing a stream enterer. You see?


As per our Terms of Service: one account per user only. Its actually a condition of your membership and the establishment of more than one account is grounds for a permanent ban. If you wish to change your username - you need to contact myself or David N. Snyder (site admin/owner) and we can make that change.

Alternatively, if you feel that you are now uncomfortable following the advice you received as a result of making a claim of attainment - all you need to is not mention it (your claim) and perhaps change the content in your signature field.
kind regards,

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby plwk » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:30 am

Great...just what we need...another sotapanna who doesn't know a forum's rules on double nicking.... :tongue:
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Postby James the Giant » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:30 am

tiltbillings wrote:... but the number of those who imagine they are ariya is far greater, and they tend to be far noisier.

:goodpost:

I have met four. They were all monks with over 20 years in robes, all refusing to confirm it themselves. They were "outed" by their teachers or fellow senior monks. Two Thai Ajahns, one Burmese Sayadaw, and one Western Ajahn.
I have never met any laypeople who I would trust enough to believe they had attained such a level. There are plenty on the internet... but there are also plenty of deluded people on the internet.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby divine » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:32 am

Hehe, well then. Let's just see what happens.

Take care, strive for liberation, you are on the right track!
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby khlawng » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:36 am

plwk wrote:Great...just what we need...another sotapanna who doesn't know a forum's rules on double nicking.... :tongue:


:rofl: well.. its not one of the fetters is it?
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Postby Viscid » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:I have known a number of individuals who are likely genuinely ariya, but the number of those who imagine they are ariya is far greater


What qualities led you to believe they were ariya, if it was not rumour that left the impression?
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Ben » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:45 am

khlawng wrote:
plwk wrote:Great...just what we need...another sotapanna who doesn't know a forum's rules on double nicking.... :tongue:


:rofl: well.. its not one of the fetters is it?


Actually, perfect sila, to my knowledge, appears to be one of the defining characteristics of the first stage of awakening. By double nicking against the terms and conditions of Dhamma Wheel, one is effectively taking that which is not given, and engaging in deception, both of which are breaches of the second precept and fourth precept respectively.
kind regards,

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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