How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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James the Giant
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by James the Giant »

tiltbillings wrote:... but the number of those who imagine they are ariya is far greater, and they tend to be far noisier.
:goodpost:

I have met four. They were all monks with over 20 years in robes, all refusing to confirm it themselves. They were "outed" by their teachers or fellow senior monks. Two Thai Ajahns, one Burmese Sayadaw, and one Western Ajahn.
I have never met any laypeople who I would trust enough to believe they had attained such a level. There are plenty on the internet... but there are also plenty of deluded people on the internet.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
divine
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by divine »

Hehe, well then. Let's just see what happens.

Take care, strive for liberation, you are on the right track!
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
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khlawng
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by khlawng »

plwk wrote:Great...just what we need...another sotapanna who doesn't know a forum's rules on double nicking.... :tongue:
:rofl: well.. its not one of the fetters is it?
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Viscid
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by Viscid »

tiltbillings wrote:I have known a number of individuals who are likely genuinely ariya, but the number of those who imagine they are ariya is far greater
What qualities led you to believe they were ariya, if it was not rumour that left the impression?
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Ben
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Ben »

khlawng wrote:
plwk wrote:Great...just what we need...another sotapanna who doesn't know a forum's rules on double nicking.... :tongue:
:rofl: well.. its not one of the fetters is it?
Actually, perfect sila, to my knowledge, appears to be one of the defining characteristics of the first stage of awakening. By double nicking against the terms and conditions of Dhamma Wheel, one is effectively taking that which is not given, and engaging in deception, both of which are breaches of the second precept and fourth precept respectively.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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tiltbillings
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings »

Viscid wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I have known a number of individuals who are likely genuinely ariya, but the number of those who imagine they are ariya is far greater
What qualities led you to believe they were ariya, if it was not rumour that left the impression?
Demeanour and wisdom.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
danieLion
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by danieLion »

Hi,

Q: What's the best way to know someone's not (at least) a stream enterer?

A: They publicly declare they're a stream enterer.

Kind regards,
Daniel
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khlawng
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by khlawng »

Ben wrote:
khlawng wrote:
plwk wrote:Great...just what we need...another sotapanna who doesn't know a forum's rules on double nicking.... :tongue:
:rofl: well.. its not one of the fetters is it?
Actually, perfect sila, to my knowledge, appears to be one of the defining characteristics of the first stage of awakening. By double nicking against the terms and conditions of Dhamma Wheel, one is effectively taking that which is not given, and engaging in deception, both of which are breaches of the second precept and fourth precept respectively.
kind regards,

Ben
Ben,

A sotapanna is merely one that has eradicated doubt, self-illusion and partaking in wrongful rituals and ceremonies. He is by no means a saint. He has not even began to weaken sense desire and hatred!

Precepts are general guidelines for us lay people to guide us until we have cultivated our minds. Please don't over apply them to every small situation. It is depressing and utterly unhelpful to continously shift the goal post for many who rely on forums like this to find some foothold to begin their journey!

I know there is a general conception that has been perpatuating itself around the Buddhist community that gaining stream entry is so difficult, almost impossible, by any lay people. But the Buddha's teaching is not that difficult that it is so inaccessible to all. We must have the conviction and fate that it is entierly possible for anyone of us to gain Nibbana, if not at least the entry path to Nibbana in this lifetime. If tradesmen, housewives, farmers, brahmans and the untouchables can gain stream entry by listening to the Buddha's words, which has been recorded in the Sutta, then surely, we as an educated bunch of modern day human beings, with access to years of education, so much more materials, recorded dhamma talks and access to meditation teachers all around the world are better equip to realize this.

If however, you have no conviction, no fate to start or worst, you convince yourself that attainment is not possible, or you let another tell you that attainment is impossible and you believe that, then Mara has truely won.
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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings »

khlawng wrote:I know there is a general conception that has been perpatuating itself around the Buddhist community that gaining stream entry is so difficult, almost impossible, by any lay people. .
It certainly is not impossible for the laity to attain to sotapanna, but I seriously doubt that those who publicly claim it on a forum such this have actually done so.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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khlawng
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by khlawng »

tiltbillings wrote:
khlawng wrote:I know there is a general conception that has been perpatuating itself around the Buddhist community that gaining stream entry is so difficult, almost impossible, by any lay people. .
It certainly is not impossible for the laity to attain to sotapanna, but I seriously doubt that those who publicly claim it on a forum such this have actually done so.
Well tilt,

I for one hope anyone that believe they have attained sotapanna to come forward and tell us how they did. No judgement, no shame and no criticism. Sure there are the crazies. But I will go through a 100, 1000, 10,000 of them to find that 1 gem. That is my conviction. That is my effort.
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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings »

khlawng wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
khlawng wrote:I know there is a general conception that has been perpatuating itself around the Buddhist community that gaining stream entry is so difficult, almost impossible, by any lay people. .
It certainly is not impossible for the laity to attain to sotapanna, but I seriously doubt that those who publicly claim it on a forum such this have actually done so.
Well tilt,

I for one hope anyone that believe they have attained sotapanna to come forward and tell us how they did. No judgement, no shame and no criticism. Sure there are the crazies. But I will go through a 100, 1000, 10,000 of them to find that 1 gem. That is my conviction. That is my effort.
Having seen the crazies in action, it is not worth effort. What is worth the effort is simply for those who are with some degree of insight to post, sharing their Dhamma without drawing attention themselves by making claims that will lump them in with the crazies. That, based upon expeerience, is what works best.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ben
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Ben »

With respect, khlang, I believe you are mistaken.
When I have time I will make a more substantial reply.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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khlawng
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by khlawng »

Ben wrote:With respect, khlang, I believe you are mistaken.
When I have time I will make a more substantial reply.
kind regards,

Ben
No problems Ben. My apologies in advance if I have misunderstood your post.
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James the Giant
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by James the Giant »

divine wrote:...for instance I would like to have some guidance to meditation...
I seem to remember that it is a central part of Stream Entry that the person now knows deeply and certainly how to practise. They no longer need any instruction on how to meditate. Their dhamma eye is open, they can see the path and how to walk it.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
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Cittasanto
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by Cittasanto »

I do believe I have met an Ariya, although they denied it, their actions spoke loader than words & claims.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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