How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:37 am


danieLion
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Postby danieLion » Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:12 am

Hi,

Q: What's the best way to know someone's not (at least) a stream enterer?

A: They publicly declare they're a stream enterer.

Kind regards,
Daniel

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khlawng
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby khlawng » Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:43 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:48 am


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khlawng
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby khlawng » Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:57 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:03 am


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Ben
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Ben » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:13 am

With respect, khlang, I believe you are mistaken.
When I have time I will make a more substantial reply.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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khlawng
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby khlawng » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:15 am


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James the Giant
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby James the Giant » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:20 am

Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.

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Cittasanto
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:03 am

I do believe I have met an Ariya, although they denied it, their actions spoke loader than words & claims.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Ben
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Ben » Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:43 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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polarbear101
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Postby polarbear101 » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:07 am

:tongue:
Last edited by polarbear101 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

divine
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby divine » Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:51 pm

As a former atheist/agnostic and certainly not a buddhist I would be very sceptical myself had anyone made claims like this. Several issues arises, how to prove it is one. Why argue for or against it is another. If someone actually had become a stream enterer, why convey it like this? As well I could mention several reasons why random people could claim this without it beeing true.

But for me it was an immense experience, which ended up with the basic knowledge somewhat like "Ok, so buddhism is the way things are - I have to learn more about it" and when I read the things about stream enterer and other stuff it was like "check, check, check" but also some "yes, but", "yes, and" "ok, but not limited to" and several "ok, this is interesting but is it true" etc. One of the questions I had was how common is stream entry, which lead me to this thread. Other terms and teachings I have never heard about, or cannot grasp or in other ways wrap my head around. I can easily understand certain people's sceptisism towards this claim, especially when it seems they take the written descriptions very literally, when the true reality of it is both on target but also not sufficient to grasp the wholeness of it. It's similar to . It will therefore necessarily become hard for some people to believe anyone can realistically attain the stage of a stream enterer. It is not true what one wrote about having attained the Eye of the Dhamma so the stream enterer would know everything. Also I think the level of insight and understanding is related to the prior knowledge of buddhism and meditation, because despite my nick I don't feel very divine except the fact that I became a stream enterer and saw and experienced what I did. But where in the scriptures is this?

Thank you all for good advice, I little by little intend to take up on the meditation but a lot of things is happening in my life - with Dhamma as my guide. I'm in a good run with ana pana now, but need to learn more techniques I think. I have no hurry, even though YOU might have chosen otherwise. I will work with what the insights gave me for the mission I took/accepted. And just to make things perfectly clear: I do not intend to misuse this forum by spewing out things that I gain insights about, I don't see that as something that will have any gain when the nature of man and internet are the way they are. I have understanding for the feeling, why is this guy telling the truth when so many others claiming the same is obviously not. And that's a healthy enough point, how would the world look like if it was that easy to get followers? In the end this is all my answer to "why convey it like this", I wanted to know how common it is.

If you are also a stream enterer, or know of one, please contribute in the in the GENERAL DHAMMA\Open Dhamma forum. But please, read the first post thoroughly before contributing.
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!

divine
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Postby divine » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:08 pm

Dear moderators, I am sorry I wasn't able to get accustomed to the do's and don't's on this forum before venturing into this, but if time and convention permits could you possibly consider moderating this thread a little bit?

I hope for this thread to be without discussion, a simple "I know of three living individuals" will suffice. There is plenty of threads where sceptisism can be expressed.

:twothumbsup:

Edit: It seemes the moderators merged the two threads, this post was originally the second post in a thread I created in the Open Dhamma forum, but apparantly because the contributors didn't stay on topic it was no point in having two of the same. Like someone said: This thread should be called "Why isn't stream entry common", while my failed attempt was to create a pure thread to easily get some overview of how common it is - in Open Dhamma, not Modern Theravada. Just so it's said.

:anjali:
Last edited by divine on Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!

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Sokehi
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Postby Sokehi » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:17 pm

if one is posting in a forum that emphasizes discussion one should be expecting this to happen. just my 2 baht.
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko


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daverupa
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Postby daverupa » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:18 pm


divine
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Postby divine » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:31 pm

Excellent points guys, and it is the contributors and moderators who decide how valuable a thread will be. So at least have the respect to read the first post, and maybe follow the Reductor-link for some good quality sceptisism and discussion.
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:04 pm

Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


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Cittasanto
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:29 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

pulga
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Postby pulga » Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:04 pm



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