How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ben
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Ben »

Hi khlawng,
khlawng wrote: Ben,

A sotapanna is merely one that has eradicated doubt, self-illusion and partaking in wrongful rituals and ceremonies. He is by no means a saint. He has not even began to weaken sense desire and hatred!
Here is part of the text of a post that David N. Snyder wrote some time ago with regards to the virtue of sotapanna:
There are also Sutta references that suggest the stream-entrant does have perfect sila, in regard to the Five precepts:

"One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry." Samyutta Nikaya 25.10

"Bhikkhus, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream-enterer, . . . He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken." Samyutta Nikaya 55.2

"There are, O monks, these blessings in realizing the fruit of stream-entry: One is firm in the good Dhamma. One is unable to fall back." Anguttara Nikaya 6.97

"Consider the person who is accomplished in the precepts, and is moderately successful in concentration, moderately successful in wisdom – by destroying the three hindrances, he becomes one, who will be reborn seven times at most [stream entrant]" Anguttara Nikaya 9.12

"The stream winner, with virtues dear to noble ones endowed, which are unbroken and without a rent, untarnished and without a blemish, purifying, praised by the wise, uncontaminated and conducive to concentration." Anguttara Nikaya 9.27

Shortly after the death of a lay person named Sarakani, the Buddha identified him as a stream-entrant. Then some monks complained that Sarakani could not have been a stream-entrant as this lay person indulged in alcohol. But the Buddha remarked that, "Sarakani the Sakyan undertook the training at the time of his death." Samyutta Nikaya 55.24

(note the words "unbroken" above)
The above are sutta references and if I had some of my commentarial works, CMA, and my hard copy of Ledi Sayadaw's Manuals of Buddhism at hand I am confident that I could provide more material from the post-canonical literature in support of my contention. David's post and the remainder of that hotly debated discussion can be found here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 3&start=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
khlawng wrote:Precepts are general guidelines for us lay people to guide us until we have cultivated our minds.
Actually, my reading of the literature indicates to me that sila conditions samma-samadhi which also conditions panna. If we are to progress on the path then we need to maintain our conduct. That is not to say that as householders we may find ourselves in ethically ambiguous situations. In which case, I agree, the precepts and the wise counsel of our kalayanamittas can provide important guidance.
khlawng wrote:Please don't over apply them to every small situation. It is depressing and utterly unhelpful to continously shift the goal post for many who rely on forums like this to find some foothold to begin their journey!
I don't think I am over-applying the precepts nor shifting the goal posts. All I have done above is to encourage Divine to honestly and earnestly investigate all arisen states and to continue with the practice - which would be the same advice to anyone joining Dhamma Wheel and in their first post making a claim of an ariya attainment. Just about everything I do here is for the benefit of others, to encourage others to either pick up the practice or to keep going either by assisting in the provision of environment that supports Dhamma discussion or through my communications on thread or privately encouraging members to engage with the Dhamma.
khlawng wrote:I know there is a general conception that has been perpatuating itself around the Buddhist community that gaining stream entry is so difficult, almost impossible, by any lay people. But the Buddha's teaching is not that difficult that it is so inaccessible to all. We must have the conviction and fate that it is entierly possible for anyone of us to gain Nibbana, if not at least the entry path to Nibbana in this lifetime. If tradesmen, housewives, farmers, brahmans and the untouchables can gain stream entry by listening to the Buddha's words, which has been recorded in the Sutta, then surely, we as an educated bunch of modern day human beings, with access to years of education, so much more materials, recorded dhamma talks and access to meditation teachers all around the world are better equip to realize this.
Those people who were close to the Buddha already had great paramis and excellent kamma which is why many attained after just listening to a discourse or in no short time. Becoming a sotapanna is not impossible, it can be done in this life but in this era it requires great effort and it cannot be attained outside the dispensation of the Buddha.
khlawng wrote:If however, you have no conviction, no fate to start or worst, you convince yourself that attainment is not possible, or you let another tell you that attainment is impossible and you believe that, then Mara has truely won.
And equally, Mara has also won if we convince ourselves that we have attained an ariyan state when in fact we have not.
kind regards,

Ben
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Polar Bear
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by Polar Bear »

:tongue:
Last edited by Polar Bear on Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

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divine
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by divine »

As a former atheist/agnostic and certainly not a buddhist I would be very sceptical myself had anyone made claims like this. Several issues arises, how to prove it is one. Why argue for or against it is another. If someone actually had become a stream enterer, why convey it like this? As well I could mention several reasons why random people could claim this without it beeing true.

But for me it was an immense experience, which ended up with the basic knowledge somewhat like "Ok, so buddhism is the way things are - I have to learn more about it" and when I read the things about stream enterer and other stuff it was like "check, check, check" but also some "yes, but", "yes, and" "ok, but not limited to" and several "ok, this is interesting but is it true" etc. One of the questions I had was how common is stream entry, which lead me to this thread. Other terms and teachings I have never heard about, or cannot grasp or in other ways wrap my head around. I can easily understand certain people's sceptisism towards this claim, especially when it seems they take the written descriptions very literally, when the true reality of it is both on target but also not sufficient to grasp the wholeness of it. It's similar to the story of the blind men and the elephant. It will therefore necessarily become hard for some people to believe anyone can realistically attain the stage of a stream enterer. It is not true what one wrote about having attained the Eye of the Dhamma so the stream enterer would know everything. Also I think the level of insight and understanding is related to the prior knowledge of buddhism and meditation, because despite my nick I don't feel very divine except the fact that I became a stream enterer and saw and experienced what I did. But where in the scriptures is this?

Thank you all for good advice, I little by little intend to take up on the meditation but a lot of things is happening in my life - with Dhamma as my guide. I'm in a good run with ana pana now, but need to learn more techniques I think. I have no hurry, even though YOU might have chosen otherwise. I will work with what the insights gave me for the mission I took/accepted. And just to make things perfectly clear: I do not intend to misuse this forum by spewing out things that I gain insights about, I don't see that as something that will have any gain when the nature of man and internet are the way they are. I have understanding for the feeling, why is this guy telling the truth when so many others claiming the same is obviously not. And that's a healthy enough point, how would the world look like if it was that easy to get followers? In the end this is all my answer to "why convey it like this", I wanted to know how common it is.

If you are also a stream enterer, or know of one, please contribute in the ...---... How common is stream entry? in the GENERAL DHAMMA\Open Dhamma forum. But please, read the first post thoroughly before contributing.
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
divine
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by divine »

Dear moderators, I am sorry I wasn't able to get accustomed to the do's and don't's on this forum before venturing into this, but if time and convention permits could you possibly consider moderating this thread a little bit?

I hope for this thread to be without discussion, a simple "I know of three living individuals" will suffice. There is plenty of threads where sceptisism can be expressed.

:twothumbsup:

Edit: It seemes the moderators merged the two threads, this post was originally the second post in a thread I created in the Open Dhamma forum, but apparantly because the contributors didn't stay on topic it was no point in having two of the same. Like someone said: This thread should be called "Why isn't stream entry common", while my failed attempt was to create a pure thread to easily get some overview of how common it is - in Open Dhamma, not Modern Theravada. Just so it's said.

:anjali:
Last edited by divine on Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by Sokehi »

if one is posting in a forum that emphasizes discussion one should be expecting this to happen. just my 2 baht.
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daverupa
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by daverupa »

divine wrote:Lets accept the claims - leave sceptisism and discussion out of it.
Udana 6.2 wrote:"It is through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning."
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by divine »

Excellent points guys, and it is the contributors and moderators who decide how valuable a thread will be. So at least have the respect to read the first post, and maybe follow the Reductor-link for some good quality sceptisism and discussion.
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

tiltbillings wrote:Over the past 44 years, I have known a number of individuals who are likely genuinely ariya, but the number of those who imagine they are ariya is far greater, and they tend to be far noisier.
I hate to reveal my ignorance but I keep coming across this term "ariya" and I can't find it anywhere. Is it a term for stream entry or attainment of one of the noble paths? The Buddhist dictionary I have doesn't list it. Thanks for clarification.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by Cittasanto »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Over the past 44 years, I have known a number of individuals who are likely genuinely ariya, but the number of those who imagine they are ariya is far greater, and they tend to be far noisier.
I hate to reveal my ignorance but I keep coming across this term "ariya" and I can't find it anywhere. Is it a term for stream entry or attainment of one of the noble paths? The Buddhist dictionary I have doesn't list it. Thanks for clarification.
you will of see it, it is generally translated as "Noble" it refers in general terms to someone on the path.
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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by pulga »

There's an interesting quote by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi regarding Ven. Ñanavira:
I find many of his formulations highly insightful, even brilliant, and leave open the possibility that he might really have attained the first path and the first fruition.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by manas »

Hi divine,

I will ask for your continued patience, because I also won't be answering your question exactly as you had wished. But this is relevant. Firstly: there are people here on Dhamma Wheel who have been either interested in, or practising, the Buddha-Dhamma (to the best of their knowledge, with honesty) for anything from one year, to maybe fifty years. Collectively there is alot of wisdom & experience here. So when someone just shows up out of the blue and announces an ariya attainment, it does grate a bit with some of us, maybe. In my own case, I first got interested in the Dhamma about 20 years ago, and my practice hasn't been steady over those years. I've had many ups and downs. But over the last few years, I've increased my efforts in trying to engage with all the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path much more, and lately I feel as though I am finally beginning to understand what the Dhamma is about, partially. Can you see how it might make someone like myself feel, having struggled with both comprehension of the Doctrine and it's practical implementation over such a long time, when someone turns up freely admitting little knowledge of it, yet claiming to already have attained that which I seek?

The other thing I wanted to say was that, I do think there are a few stream-enterers here, but I think that in most cases, the ones that truly are, will not disclose it. (There could be exceptions to this, however.)

with metta,

manas. :anjali:

EDIT: and by the way, welcome to Dhamma Wheel :smile: I should add that I neither reject nor confirm your claim - I just can't make a judgement either way, other than if it is true, I'm very happy for you, really. But whatever the actual situation, I do encourage you to study the suttas, and put the teachings therein, into practice. One other advice would be to try to let go of identifying with the idea of having attained, for now; because my concern would be that if you have overestimated - it's very common to do this on the back of a wonderful meditative experience, I and many others know about this personally - that holding on to the belief that you have gone further than you actually have, might actually become a bit of an obstacle for you. So, I hope you can sense that I'm saying all this out of goodwill. The road can be tricky sometimes...
Last edited by manas on Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by reflection »

I belief the Buddha was enlightened, that's what matters most to me. It's not so important who are stream enterers today; we can never know for 100% sure about others anyway. Also, it is always wise to question our own attainments. It's hard to go against our imprints, so stream entry is not a common thing. Still, I belief stream entry is possible for everybody who sincerely practices the dhamma.
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Divine,
divine wrote:Once again, so to be sure everyone gets the picture: I hope for this thread to be without discussion, a simple "I know of three living individuals" will suffice, even if you happen to be one of them. And let it be up to the author of the post to define the criteria, since there are some different ones, but feel free to share your definition. I truly believe such a thread will be of benefit, so don't clutter it.
A definition is this...
MN 2 wrote:"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: self-identity view, doubt, and grasping at habits & practices."
If one accepted that definition at face value, I’d be prepared to declare a good many people as likely stream-entrants and beyond, as it seems little more than seeing that the Four Noble Truths are true, and that this renders a couple of prevailing Brahman practices and beliefs irrelevant.

There are however other definitions, far removed from this. The diversity in measures makes a discussion of the subject difficult, confounding, and likely to give rise to unwholesome mindstates.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
divine
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by divine »

@ manas: Thanks, and yes, I can see this. I have no clear answer at this point how such a thing can happen, and as I write in the Reductor sceptisism and discussion link in the first post - it will be of no gain to continue to try to convince anyone, I have said what is to be said at this point. But let me tell you: When you have been into this on and off for so long, surely you have some faith in the scriptures. So if my claim was right, you could just as well be just one lifetime behind, or even less. I urge you to continue, I am happy to convey that you are following the right path!

@ retrofuturist: yeah, when it has happened it is easy, they are nothing anymore. But I look forward with interest to see the other fetters go, maybe they will not in this lifetime, but my level of greed is very low and I am starting to become a better person already. So maybe. Let's see. It's hard to turn away from the path when such a thing has happened, because it is the only route. I am into dhamma with one foot now, and within a few years I hope to be all in.

PS. I am sorry I can't at this point use more terms from the scriptures, it's just that I haven't learnt them yet.

:focus:
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Divine,

This may be of interest too...

Stages of the Path: Stream Entry and Beyond by Bodhiketu
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11303" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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