How common is stream entry?

[khlawng]

Let me ask you: is every experience of a sense of transcending the self stream entry?

With proper right effort, followed by guided right concentration and widom, enough experience would lead to the eventual conclusion.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it to people of a single religion..

You need Right View, as Right View is the forerunner of the Noble Eightfold Path.

You don't have some magic "stream-entry" moment and discover Right View afterwards. That is backwards.

Whether the one with Right View considers themselves "Buddhist", is only relevant to the extent that it impacts the ability to drop the first three fetters.

Metta,
Retro.

[LonesomeYogurt]

Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it people of a single religion..

Right view is an integral part of stream-entering. Without a faith in the Buddha's teachings, there is no progression down the path. People can be intelligent, kind, loving, decent, moral people but that doesn't make them stream-enterers.

You need not be a Buddhist. Hence the term paccebuddha .

A paccebuddha is still a Buddhist in that he or she would agree with the teachings of the Buddha. A Buddhist is someone who affirms the eternal Dhamma as rediscovered in this world by Gotama. That fits a paccebuddha just as much as it fits you or me.


*Edit: Beat me to it Retro haha.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

That "practice" and "abandonment" doesn't seem to be trivial for the average person, judging from the generic descriptions in the suttas of gradual training, and so on.

It's worth ensuring one doesn't apply arahant standards to the sotipanna. The article I linked to at the bottom of page one of this topic suggests that stream-entry is the start of the training, rather than the by-product of years of laborious trial-and-error "Dhamma practice" merely to enter the stream. The meaning and status of the word "sekha" (trainee) would also suggest that to be so.

The article also colourfully points out that the difference between stream-entry and arahantship may well be up to a full 420 or so years worth of dedicated (gradual) practice.

I've no idea what the "couple of prevailing Brahman practices and beliefs" you refer to in your post are, though.

The practices and beliefs are atman-theory and belief in the efficacy of rites and rituals (in contrast to kamma)... a broad-brush statement on exactly which rites and rituals are practiced isn't really relevant, as they may differ amongst individual brahmans. You, not being brahman, needn't be concerned unless you have your own rituals or metaphysical beliefs to let go of.

Metta,
Retro.

[marc108]

divine,

i would suggest you pay a visit to some respected Monastics or Lay Teachers and see if they are able to confirm your experience as true Stream Entry. if it is the case you gained Stream Entry with little to no meditation experience, you are going to need some guidance I'm sure. if its the case that you are wrong, you are going to want to know so you can continue to strive towards Stream Entry.

[khlawng]

A paccebuddha is still a Buddhist in that he or she would agree with the teachings of the Buddha. A Buddhist is someone who affirms the eternal Dhamma as rediscovered in this world by Gotama. That fits a paccebuddha just as much as it fits you or me.

Oh my understanding was that a Buddhist today, you and I, is one that relies on the Dhamma taught by The Buddha (Gotama) to gain awakening. The Dhamma, being the universal truth, as such, cannot be claimed by anyone or any religion including Buddhists. As such, there are beings who never heard of the Buddha's teaching, but gained enlightenment through their own effort, hence the term, private Buddha or paccebuddha.

[Cittasanto]

And while doing all this, we should follow the path.

The problem is for all your enthusiasm, and for your claim of being a stream winner, you have not shown you really know anything about the Buddha's teachings.

Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it to people of a single religion..

it is unlikely, although the texts as I understand them seam to indicate that it would be unlikely to find the qualities of a stream enterer in someone outside the Dhammavinaya mainly because once they find the teachings that is where they stay and the practice of other traditions due to one form of wrong view or another within the philosophical framework inhibits the attainment.

[divine]

@ marc108 Thanks for this advice, I have been asking some people I have met that have meditation experience and consider themselves buddhists. The thing is I can't get myself to claim anything, neither stream entry nor experiences, some of the reasons I'm sure you can imagine. I'm here talking to you because of the anonymity of the internet. But the bottom line is, I don't need it. But help with meditation, sure!

[tiltbillings]

And while doing all this, we should follow the path.

The problem is for all your enthusiasm, and for your claim of being a stream winner, you have not shown you really know anything about the Buddha's teachings.

Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it to people of a single religion..

Well, if one takes the Buddha's teachings seriously, not odd at all.

[tiltbillings]

Let me ask you: is every experience of a sense of transcending the self stream entry?

With proper right effort, followed by guided right concentration and widom, enough experience would lead to the eventual conclusion.

That does not answer the question put to you.

[tiltbillings]

But the bottom line is, I don't need it.

If you are as you claim, you would not being saying that.

[divine]

This sounds awfully like a personal meaning and an invitation to convince you, but I won't accept it.

But the bottom line is, I don't need it.

If you are as you claim, you would not being saying that.

[khlawng]

That does not answer the question put to you.

can you help me rephrase that question in a simpler manner and maybe, if time permits, expand it a little? I am very curious about what you are asking.

[tiltbillings]

This sounds awfully like a personal meaning and an invitation to convince you, but I won't accept it.

But the bottom line is, I don't need it.

If you are as you claim, you would not being saying that.

I do not need convincing. Most likely you had yourself a self-transcending experience, and you are trying to find a slot within which to plug it so that you can understand what it is with which you are now identifying yourself, and you seem to think Buddhism fits it. If, however, you had the sort of insight of which the Buddha speaks, you would present yourself a bit differently, in line with an insight that you seem to be seriously missing. But it is important in this quest of yours to keep an open mind, not lock yourself into any experience, no matter spiffy it may seem, and in time you might get it, but in the mean time, listen and learn.

[divine]

I think I'll leave it at this. Take care, guys!

[khlawng]

I think I'll leave it at this. Take care, guys!

May inner joy and peace be a constant companion in the journey towards Nibanna.

[mikenz66]

That "practice" and "abandonment" doesn't seem to be trivial for the average person, judging from the generic descriptions in the suttas of gradual training, and so on.

It's worth ensuring one doesn't apply arahant standards to the sotipanna. The article I linked to at the bottom of page one of this topic suggests that stream-entry is the start of the training, rather than the by-product of years of laborious trial-and-error "Dhamma practice" merely to enter the stream. The meaning and status of the word "sekha" (trainee) would also suggest that to be so.

Oh, ok, I forgot that: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11303

The author expresses a particular opinion (and the opinion of the FWBO founder). He does rightly point out that the suttas are not completely consistent on what a stream-enterer has dropped.

The article also colourfully points out that the difference between stream-entry and arahantship may well be up to a full 420 or so years worth of dedicated (gradual) practice.

I've no idea what the "couple of prevailing Brahman practices and beliefs" you refer to in your post are, though.

The practices and beliefs are atman-theory and belief in the efficacy of rites and rituals (in contrast to kamma)... a broad-brush statement on exactly which rites and rituals are practiced isn't really relevant, as they may differ amongst individual brahmans. You, not being brahman, needn't be concerned unless you have your own rituals or metaphysical beliefs to let go of.

Since we are not brahmans I'm even more confused... I guess I'll just ignore it since it appears to have no relevance.


Mike

[tiltbillings]

I think I'll leave it at this. Take care, guys!

Your "taking leave" is not surprising. I hope you take time on your "leave" to ask questions, listen and learn.

[khlawng]

I think I'll leave it at this. Take care, guys!

Your "taking leave" is not surprising. I hope you take time on your "leave" to ask questions, listen and learn.

Brother, you are so angsty. Maybe you should come from the point of 2 monks standing side by side, one is false, how do you pay homage to the correct one? By paying homage to both, you are guaranteed to pay homage to the correct one.

Nevertheless, in the homage to the Sangha:

Supatipanno Bhagavato savaka sangho
...
Yadidam cattari purisa yugani Attha purissa puggala
(The Four pairs of persons, the Eight Kinds of Individuals)
...
(is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality..offerings..revenerential salutation).

What are the four pair of persons? Eight kinds of individuals?

The person on the path of stream entry and the stream enterer
The person on the path of once returner and the once returner.
The person on the path of non-returner and the non-returner.
The person on the path of arahantship and the arahant.

[tiltbillings]

I think I'll leave it at this. Take care, guys!

Your "taking leave" is not surprising. I hope you take time on your "leave" to ask questions, listen and learn.

Brother, you are so angsty.

"Angsty?" Goodness.

Maybe you should come from the point of 2 monks standing side by side, one is false, how do you pay homage to the correct one? By paying homage to both, you are guaranteed to pay homage to the correct one.

The issue is rather simple. Quite frankly, in his claim of being sotapanna, while I am sure he was sincere, he showed little real humility or genuine insight in response to what was said in response to his rather exuberant claim. In this case one of the monks had his robes on backwards.