How common is stream entry?

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby khlawng » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:Let me ask you: is every experience of a sense of transcending the self stream entry?


With proper right effort, followed by guided right concentration and widom, enough experience would lead to the eventual conclusion.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:35 am

Greetings,

Viscid wrote:Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it to people of a single religion..

You need Right View, as Right View is the forerunner of the Noble Eightfold Path.

You don't have some magic "stream-entry" moment and discover Right View afterwards. That is backwards.

Whether the one with Right View considers themselves "Buddhist", is only relevant to the extent that it impacts the ability to drop the first three fetters.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:36 am

Viscid wrote:Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it people of a single religion..

Right view is an integral part of stream-entering. Without a faith in the Buddha's teachings, there is no progression down the path. People can be intelligent, kind, loving, decent, moral people but that doesn't make them stream-enterers.

khlawng wrote:You need not be a Buddhist. Hence the term paccebuddha .

A paccebuddha is still a Buddhist in that he or she would agree with the teachings of the Buddha. A Buddhist is someone who affirms the eternal Dhamma as rediscovered in this world by Gotama. That fits a paccebuddha just as much as it fits you or me.


*Edit: Beat me to it Retro haha.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:41 am

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:That "practice" and "abandonment" doesn't seem to be trivial for the average person, judging from the generic descriptions in the suttas of gradual training, and so on.

It's worth ensuring one doesn't apply arahant standards to the sotipanna. The article I linked to at the bottom of page one of this topic suggests that stream-entry is the start of the training, rather than the by-product of years of laborious trial-and-error "Dhamma practice" merely to enter the stream. The meaning and status of the word "sekha" (trainee) would also suggest that to be so.

The article also colourfully points out that the difference between stream-entry and arahantship may well be up to a full 420 or so years worth of dedicated (gradual) practice.

mikenz66 wrote:I've no idea what the "couple of prevailing Brahman practices and beliefs" you refer to in your post are, though.

The practices and beliefs are atman-theory and belief in the efficacy of rites and rituals (in contrast to kamma)... a broad-brush statement on exactly which rites and rituals are practiced isn't really relevant, as they may differ amongst individual brahmans. You, not being brahman, needn't be concerned unless you have your own rituals or metaphysical beliefs to let go of.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby marc108 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:47 am

divine,

i would suggest you pay a visit to some respected Monastics or Lay Teachers and see if they are able to confirm your experience as true Stream Entry. if it is the case you gained Stream Entry with little to no meditation experience, you are going to need some guidance I'm sure. if its the case that you are wrong, you are going to want to know so you can continue to strive towards Stream Entry.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby khlawng » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:56 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:A paccebuddha is still a Buddhist in that he or she would agree with the teachings of the Buddha. A Buddhist is someone who affirms the eternal Dhamma as rediscovered in this world by Gotama. That fits a paccebuddha just as much as it fits you or me.


Oh my understanding was that a Buddhist today, you and I, is one that relies on the Dhamma taught by The Buddha (Gotama) to gain awakening. The Dhamma, being the universal truth, as such, cannot be claimed by anyone or any religion including Buddhists. As such, there are beings who never heard of the Buddha's teaching, but gained enlightenment through their own effort, hence the term, private Buddha or paccebuddha.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:59 am

Viscid wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
divine wrote:And while doing all this, we should follow the path.
The problem is for all your enthusiasm, and for your claim of being a stream winner, you have not shown you really know anything about the Buddha's teachings.


Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it to people of a single religion..

it is unlikely, although the texts as I understand them seam to indicate that it would be unlikely to find the qualities of a stream enterer in someone outside the Dhammavinaya mainly because once they find the teachings that is where they stay and the practice of other traditions due to one form of wrong view or another within the philosophical framework inhibits the attainment.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby divine » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:06 am

@ marc108 Thanks for this advice, I have been asking some people I have met that have meditation experience and consider themselves buddhists. The thing is I can't get myself to claim anything, neither stream entry nor experiences, some of the reasons I'm sure you can imagine. I'm here talking to you because of the anonymity of the internet. But the bottom line is, I don't need it. But help with meditation, sure!
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:07 am

Viscid wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
divine wrote:And while doing all this, we should follow the path.
The problem is for all your enthusiasm, and for your claim of being a stream winner, you have not shown you really know anything about the Buddha's teachings.


Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it to people of a single religion..
Well, if one takes the Buddha's teachings seriously, not odd at all.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:08 am

khlawng wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Let me ask you: is every experience of a sense of transcending the self stream entry?


With proper right effort, followed by guided right concentration and widom, enough experience would lead to the eventual conclusion.
That does not answer the question put to you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:11 am

divine wrote:But the bottom line is, I don't need it.
If you are as you claim, you would not being saying that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby divine » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:15 am

This sounds awfully like a personal meaning and an invitation to convince you, but I won't accept it.

tiltbillings wrote:
divine wrote:But the bottom line is, I don't need it.
If you are as you claim, you would not being saying that.
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby khlawng » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:18 am

tiltbillings wrote:That does not answer the question put to you.


can you help me rephrase that question in a simpler manner and maybe, if time permits, expand it a little? I am very curious about what you are asking.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:27 am

divine wrote:This sounds awfully like a personal meaning and an invitation to convince you, but I won't accept it.

tiltbillings wrote:
divine wrote:But the bottom line is, I don't need it.
If you are as you claim, you would not being saying that.

I do not need convincing. Most likely you had yourself a self-transcending experience, and you are trying to find a slot within which to plug it so that you can understand what it is with which you are now identifying yourself, and you seem to think Buddhism fits it. If, however, you had the sort of insight of which the Buddha speaks, you would present yourself a bit differently, in line with an insight that you seem to be seriously missing. But it is important in this quest of yours to keep an open mind, not lock yourself into any experience, no matter spiffy it may seem, and in time you might get it, but in the mean time, listen and learn.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby divine » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:34 am

I think I'll leave it at this. Take care, guys!

:focus:
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby khlawng » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:41 am

divine wrote:I think I'll leave it at this. Take care, guys!

:focus:


May inner joy and peace be a constant companion in the journey towards Nibanna.
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:47 am

retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:That "practice" and "abandonment" doesn't seem to be trivial for the average person, judging from the generic descriptions in the suttas of gradual training, and so on.

It's worth ensuring one doesn't apply arahant standards to the sotipanna. The article I linked to at the bottom of page one of this topic suggests that stream-entry is the start of the training, rather than the by-product of years of laborious trial-and-error "Dhamma practice" merely to enter the stream. The meaning and status of the word "sekha" (trainee) would also suggest that to be so.

Oh, ok, I forgot that: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11303

The author expresses a particular opinion (and the opinion of the FWBO founder). He does rightly point out that the suttas are not completely consistent on what a stream-enterer has dropped.
retrofuturist wrote:The article also colourfully points out that the difference between stream-entry and arahantship may well be up to a full 420 or so years worth of dedicated (gradual) practice.

mikenz66 wrote:I've no idea what the "couple of prevailing Brahman practices and beliefs" you refer to in your post are, though.

The practices and beliefs are atman-theory and belief in the efficacy of rites and rituals (in contrast to kamma)... a broad-brush statement on exactly which rites and rituals are practiced isn't really relevant, as they may differ amongst individual brahmans. You, not being brahman, needn't be concerned unless you have your own rituals or metaphysical beliefs to let go of.

Since we are not brahmans I'm even more confused... I guess I'll just ignore it since it appears to have no relevance.

:anjali:
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:05 am

divine wrote:I think I'll leave it at this. Take care, guys!

:focus:
Your "taking leave" is not surprising. I hope you take time on your "leave" to ask questions, listen and learn.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby khlawng » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:06 am

tiltbillings wrote:
divine wrote:I think I'll leave it at this. Take care, guys!

:focus:
Your "taking leave" is not surprising. I hope you take time on your "leave" to ask questions, listen and learn.


Brother, you are so angsty. Maybe you should come from the point of 2 monks standing side by side, one is false, how do you pay homage to the correct one? By paying homage to both, you are guaranteed to pay homage to the correct one.

Nevertheless, in the homage to the Sangha:

Supatipanno Bhagavato savaka sangho
...
Yadidam cattari purisa yugani Attha purissa puggala
(The Four pairs of persons, the Eight Kinds of Individuals)
...
(is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality..offerings..revenerential salutation).

What are the four pair of persons? Eight kinds of individuals?

The person on the path of stream entry and the stream enterer
The person on the path of once returner and the once returner.
The person on the path of non-returner and the non-returner.
The person on the path of arahantship and the arahant.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:25 am

khlawng wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
divine wrote:I think I'll leave it at this. Take care, guys!

:focus:
Your "taking leave" is not surprising. I hope you take time on your "leave" to ask questions, listen and learn.


Brother, you are so angsty.
"Angsty?" Goodness.

Maybe you should come from the point of 2 monks standing side by side, one is false, how do you pay homage to the correct one? By paying homage to both, you are guaranteed to pay homage to the correct one.
The issue is rather simple. Quite frankly, in his claim of being sotapanna, while I am sure he was sincere, he showed little real humility or genuine insight in response to what was said in response to his rather exuberant claim. In this case one of the monks had his robes on backwards.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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