How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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khlawng
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by khlawng »

divine wrote:I think I'll leave it at this. Take care, guys!

:focus:
May inner joy and peace be a constant companion in the journey towards Nibanna.
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mikenz66
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:That "practice" and "abandonment" doesn't seem to be trivial for the average person, judging from the generic descriptions in the suttas of gradual training, and so on.
It's worth ensuring one doesn't apply arahant standards to the sotipanna. The article I linked to at the bottom of page one of this topic suggests that stream-entry is the start of the training, rather than the by-product of years of laborious trial-and-error "Dhamma practice" merely to enter the stream. The meaning and status of the word "sekha" (trainee) would also suggest that to be so.
Oh, ok, I forgot that: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11303" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The author expresses a particular opinion (and the opinion of the FWBO founder). He does rightly point out that the suttas are not completely consistent on what a stream-enterer has dropped.
retrofuturist wrote: The article also colourfully points out that the difference between stream-entry and arahantship may well be up to a full 420 or so years worth of dedicated (gradual) practice.
mikenz66 wrote:I've no idea what the "couple of prevailing Brahman practices and beliefs" you refer to in your post are, though.
The practices and beliefs are atman-theory and belief in the efficacy of rites and rituals (in contrast to kamma)... a broad-brush statement on exactly which rites and rituals are practiced isn't really relevant, as they may differ amongst individual brahmans. You, not being brahman, needn't be concerned unless you have your own rituals or metaphysical beliefs to let go of.
Since we are not brahmans I'm even more confused... I guess I'll just ignore it since it appears to have no relevance.

:anjali:
Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings »

divine wrote:I think I'll leave it at this. Take care, guys!

:focus:
Your "taking leave" is not surprising. I hope you take time on your "leave" to ask questions, listen and learn.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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khlawng
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by khlawng »

tiltbillings wrote:
divine wrote:I think I'll leave it at this. Take care, guys!

:focus:
Your "taking leave" is not surprising. I hope you take time on your "leave" to ask questions, listen and learn.
Brother, you are so angsty. Maybe you should come from the point of 2 monks standing side by side, one is false, how do you pay homage to the correct one? By paying homage to both, you are guaranteed to pay homage to the correct one.

Nevertheless, in the homage to the Sangha:

Supatipanno Bhagavato savaka sangho
...
Yadidam cattari purisa yugani Attha purissa puggala
(The Four pairs of persons, the Eight Kinds of Individuals)
...
(is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality..offerings..revenerential salutation).

What are the four pair of persons? Eight kinds of individuals?

The person on the path of stream entry and the stream enterer
The person on the path of once returner and the once returner.
The person on the path of non-returner and the non-returner.
The person on the path of arahantship and the arahant.
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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings »

khlawng wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
divine wrote:I think I'll leave it at this. Take care, guys!

:focus:
Your "taking leave" is not surprising. I hope you take time on your "leave" to ask questions, listen and learn.
Brother, you are so angsty.
"Angsty?" Goodness.
Maybe you should come from the point of 2 monks standing side by side, one is false, how do you pay homage to the correct one? By paying homage to both, you are guaranteed to pay homage to the correct one.
The issue is rather simple. Quite frankly, in his claim of being sotapanna, while I am sure he was sincere, he showed little real humility or genuine insight in response to what was said in response to his rather exuberant claim. In this case one of the monks had his robes on backwards.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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reflection
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by reflection »

khlawng wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
divine wrote:I think I'll leave it at this. Take care, guys!

:focus:
Your "taking leave" is not surprising. I hope you take time on your "leave" to ask questions, listen and learn.
Brother, you are so angsty. Maybe you should come from the point of 2 monks standing side by side, one is false, how do you pay homage to the correct one? By paying homage to both, you are guaranteed to pay homage to the correct one.

Nevertheless, in the homage to the Sangha:

Supatipanno Bhagavato savaka sangho
...
Yadidam cattari purisa yugani Attha purissa puggala
(The Four pairs of persons, the Eight Kinds of Individuals)
...
(is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality..offerings..revenerential salutation).

What are the four pair of persons? Eight kinds of individuals?

The person on the path of stream entry and the stream enterer
The person on the path of once returner and the once returner.
The person on the path of non-returner and the non-returner.
The person on the path of arahantship and the arahant.
If there are the two monks: One a sotapanna and one deluded into thinking he is one, and you give them both a sneer saying they may be wrong, the genuine sotapanna would not care and the other may (hopefully) get the message.

For someone who is new to the path, barely having any meditation experience, it is highly unlikely to be a sotapanna. The chance of winning the lottery is bigger. And if also the signs are missing, I'd call it a virtual impossibility. And so, trying to get such people to see their experience in another perspective is worth the risk.

Even sotapannas are best to see their experience just as an experience, something that's actually worthless. And pointless to go claiming around. So even for them a sneer may be helpful.

We can bow to and respect everybody who claims to be a sotapanna but we can ask ourselves if we are actually helping anyone with that. We could just as well be strengthening their delusion.

With metta,
Reflection
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by nowheat »

retrofuturist wrote:The practices and beliefs are atman-theory and belief in the efficacy of rites and rituals (in contrast to kamma)... a broad-brush statement on exactly which rites and rituals are practiced isn't really relevant, as they may differ amongst individual brahmans.
I'm most interested in the distinction you make here -- that rites and rituals are contrasted to kamma, especially since the word kamma, at a time before the Buddha lived, and possibly, still, up to his time, could and often did mean the actions performed in rites and rituals. Do you see, anywhere in the suttas, a strong distinction being made between them? I recognize that the Buddha has said "kamma is intention" -- but in a sense the rites and rituals are intention, too (particular intent drives them). What I'm asking is actually whether you have seen the two specifically contrasted anywhere, rather than that we can infer from various scattered points made throughout the suttas, that they are distinct from each other, perhaps even in opposition.

:namaste:
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retrofuturist
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings nowheat,

It's any instance where "other power" (as opposed to one's own efforts) is invoked.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
daverupa
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by daverupa »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings nowheat,

It's any instance where "other power" (as opposed to one's own efforts) is invoked.

Metta,
Retro. :)
This sets up a false dichotomy, one which didn't exist in the ritual worldview of the brahmins in those days. Since "brahman = atman", self-power v. other-power doesn't apply. It was all Self, all one Power, which was the explanation for ritual efficacy in the first place. It was using "as above so below" to say that ritual enactment forced the cosmos to respond in the way that tugging on the near end of a rope forces the far end to move as well. In such rituals, precise verbal and physical acts were required.

It is in this sort of environment that the phrase "kamma is intention" - emphasizing mental acts, and training citta accordingly - first reverberated.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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retrofuturist
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Well, there you go. Thanks Dave.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mirco
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Re: ...---... How common is stream entry?

Post by mirco »

divine wrote:Are you or do you know anyone who believe to be, AND you too believe to be, a stream enterer?
Addition: Only tell, if confirmed by your/his/her higher level teacher. :-)

_()_
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khlawng
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by khlawng »

reflection wrote: We can bow to and respect everybody who claims to be a sotapanna but we can ask ourselves if we are actually helping anyone with that. We could just as well be strengthening their delusion.
What about as a person on the path to stream entry then? As I will surely accord you the due respect and you reciprocate that back when we meet eventually. Would you not accord that to a peron on the path? What he claims in delusion is secondary. That he openly declares his faith in Buddhism, is he not one that is on the path to stream entry..eventually?
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kirk5a
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by kirk5a »

reflection wrote: Even sotapannas are best to see their experience just as an experience, something that's actually worthless.
Where would we find support for that view?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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robertk
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by robertk »

Maybe you should come from the point of 2 monks standing side by side, one is false, how do you pay homage to the correct one? By paying homage to both, you are guaranteed to pay homage to the correct one.
Tilt:The issue is rather simple. . In this case one of the monks had his robes on backwards.
:clap: :anjali: :rofl:
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reflection
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by reflection »

khlawng wrote:
reflection wrote: We can bow to and respect everybody who claims to be a sotapanna but we can ask ourselves if we are actually helping anyone with that. We could just as well be strengthening their delusion.
What about as a person on the path to stream entry then? As I will surely accord you the due respect and you reciprocate that back when we meet eventually. Would you not accord that to a peron on the path? What he claims in delusion is secondary. That he openly declares his faith in Buddhism, is he not one that is on the path to stream entry..eventually?
Hi,

You have a point. I respect everybody who is on the path (also everybody who is not by the way). You are right for correcting me on that one. But for me there is a difference in respect towards those I consider noble ones and those I consider not. It's not that I respect them more, but it is respect in another way.

So yes, everybody deserves respect, also who openly claim attainments. But for me it is a different sort of respect. If somebody gets their view acknoledged by others, it only gets stronger. This is not a risk I'm willing to take in somebody who in my eyes is mostlikely not a stream enterer. Not because of myself, but because of their protection.

Hope you can now see my point of view. Also hope you understand this is my personal take on it and I don't force you to do the same. Just put it out here for everybody to reflect on and consider. I can't speak for tilt, but I am quite sure he has the same attitude and that's why he responded as he did; to help.
:anjali:

With metta,
Reflection
Last edited by reflection on Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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