Thanks for the effort, but have you ever heard the saying "arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics - even if you win, you're still retarded". This is a thread about how common stream entry is, there's nothing to be proved.
Now I have to go practise my restraint again.
How common is stream entry?
Re: How common is stream entry?
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
- tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?
Except you inserted into this thread your claim of being sotapanna, based upon minimal meditative practice, next to no knowledge of the Buddha's teaching that you have shown, but you did read an article in Wikipedia that has convinced you that you are a stream-winner, but you have refused to talk about your supposed experience, and then you wonder why most of us don't take your claim seriously.divine wrote:This is a thread about how common stream entry is, there's nothing to be proved.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: How common is stream entry?
This whole "Look everyone, I'm enlightened!" announcement comes up often, and so far it doesn't seem very helpful to be belittling and dismissive in response. These experiences are real and potentially life-changing to people. In order to understand that experience, one needs first to label them, and 'stream-entry,' being the first stage of enlightenment, serves that purpose. It's a definite marker, which separates one type of person from another type of person. Someone who has had a profound change in spiritual perspective is naturally going to use that particular marker to differentiate themselves from others. I think our responses should be understanding of this. Perhaps we should give them other terminology, say, 'Having insight into Anatta,' over 'Being a Sotapanna.'
Also:
Also:
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
- tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?
If it is put out there, is it an open topic of discussion. If the claimant makes a claim of being sotapanna, that, in terms of the practice of Theravada (the subject of this forum), is a highly significant claim, and it should not be taken lightly and there should be some challenge to it. Just because someone claims to have become ariya that does not make the claim true. To not to some degree challenge the claim is open us to all sorts of difficulties as to what is, in fact, going on.Viscid wrote:This whole "Look everyone, I'm enlightened!" announcement comes up often, and so far it doesn't seem very helpful to be belittling and dismissive in response.
That is the really the whole issue: what are these experiences. Unskilled jhana and spontaneous samadhi can give us all sorts of experiences, and key to many of those those experiences is a sense of transcendence of self, which can manifest, depending upon a number of factors, in a sense of union with god, or a loss of self in something bigger, or "the big nothingness," or any number of ways of talking about "self transcendence," but none of this is stream entry.These experiences are real and potentially life-changing to people.
Only if it is truly an experience of stream entry, which is why such public claims are so problematic. And there are far more reasons to not take such public claims seriously than are to take them seriously, as has been spelled out a number of people in this thread and elsewhere on Dhamma Wheel.In order to understand that experience, one needs first to label them, and 'stream-entry,' being the first stage of enlightenment, serves that purpose.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: How common is stream entry?
Hey divine,divine wrote:@ tiltbillings: For all I know about you on the other end of the keyboard, you are a fairly dedicated and fairly diligent guy with quite alot of experience and knowledge. You have been the number one sceptic about this claim of attainment. And that is good, sceptic's are essential in a community. But may I ask you to provide information about what kind of experiences that mimickes the stream entry? Please also say something about how this experience of no self relates to the experience of loss of doubt.
If this misunderstood experience is so common, I think it would be useful to share it on the forum, so other people can be free of their illusion. Use me as your punching bag if that makes it easier. I'll take one for the team!
I'm not Tilt (in case it wasn't clear ) but allow me to contribute.
You allude to the Big Nothing in another post. Meditative states that might be understood as Big Nothings are several. One, the formless absorption labeled "Nothingness"; two, the formless absorption of "neither perception nor non-perception"; three, cessation of feeling and perception.
In each attainment the mind has reach a finer degree of non-activity. With non-activity there is the absence of perceptions of the world, of the body or even of concepts, like space, time, and subject-object. Each state has a reduced reflex to self-reference. Couple such an experience with a deep craving to be something or other, and one can quickly conclude they've attained something like stream-entry.
The problem with such a claim is that it is dependant on temporary experiences and not on a deepened wisdom.
- tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?
And to add: these experiences can be very powerful.Reductor wrote:divine wrote:
The problem with such a claim is that it is dependant on temporary experiences and not on a deepened wisdom.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: How common is stream entry?
I agree with tiltbillings when he says it's an open topic of discussion if it is put out there, but for those interested in that discussion, I would prefer if what I actually said was beeing discussed. Instead of demands for proof or this quote where Reductor's words are labelled as mine.
tiltbillings wrote:And to add: these experiences can be very powerful.Reductor wrote:divine wrote:
The problem with such a claim is that it is dependant on temporary experiences and not on a deepened wisdom.
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
Re: How common is stream entry?
divine wrote:One last thing guys, one reason to practise meditation is that when you experience the big nothingness you can keep your calm instead of shitting your pants!
Hey divine,
I'd give Tilt the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps he simply wishes to show the context of my post, which is clearly attributed as mine (right under your name mine is also listed).
Above is a quote of yours where you mention big nothingness. In case you have forgot this statement.
EDIT: Oops! My mistake, there the quote is misattributed. I beg your pardon.
Last edited by Reductor on Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: How common is stream entry?
With respect divine, you would be well advised to take the time to learn about the Buddha Dhamma, Buddhist meditation and spend some time engaged in practice.divine wrote:One last thing guys, one reason to practise meditation is that when you experience the big nothingness you can keep your calm instead of shitting your pants!
kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: How common is stream entry?
The less right-understanding before attaining these states, the more likely craving will twist them and expand upon them until our thoughts are more product of personal-bias and delusion than they are of the experience itself.tiltbillings wrote:And to add: these experiences can be very powerful.Reductor wrote:divine wrote:
The problem with such a claim is that it is dependant on temporary experiences and not on a deepened wisdom.
This is not to say OP, or any other member here, is necessarily suffering this fate, although each of us should keep firmly in mind such things may happen to us, too, and not only to others.
- tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?
Just to clarify:
And to add: these experiences can be very powerful.Reductor wrote:
The problem with such a claim is that it is dependant on temporary experiences and not on a deepened wisdom.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: How common is stream entry?
The problem is that you really have refused to say much that warrants discussion.divine wrote:I agree with tiltbillings when he says it's an open topic of discussion if it is put out there, but for those interested in that discussion, I would prefer if what I actually said was beeing discussed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: How common is stream entry?
Hi Divine,
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 71#p193771" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
See, for example:
Into the Stream. A Study Guide on the First Stage of Awakening
by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... tream.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
Unfortunately, what you have actually said does not give much to discuss:divine wrote:I agree with tiltbillings when he says it's an open topic of discussion if it is put out there, but for those interested in that discussion, I would prefer if what I actually said was beeing discussed. ...
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 71#p193771" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You have said nothing about how your state compares with the descriptions of a stream entrant in the Suttas or Commentaries.divine wrote: My stream entry experience is hard to put in words, when I try it all comes out so... un-worthy. It sounds pretentious and insane. I'd rather not convey, if that's all right.
See, for example:
Into the Stream. A Study Guide on the First Stage of Awakening
by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... tream.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
-
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Re: How common is stream entry?
I feel that people who claim to have become ariyas yet can't describe what they know or came to understand a glaring contradiction.
If we want to know the conduct of ariyas in this area we need look no further than the suttas. Rarely did they ever come out and admit that they were ariyas to anyone even fellow monastics. However, most ariyas were known to be knowledgable about the dhamma. This idea of having experiences yet not being able to give any wisdom on dhamma seems to be opposite of what the suttas indicate an ariya to be.
If we want to know the conduct of ariyas in this area we need look no further than the suttas. Rarely did they ever come out and admit that they were ariyas to anyone even fellow monastics. However, most ariyas were known to be knowledgable about the dhamma. This idea of having experiences yet not being able to give any wisdom on dhamma seems to be opposite of what the suttas indicate an ariya to be.
Re: How common is stream entry?
IF someone were to say: "I am an Ariya" - Would his audience believe him? What would the benefit thereof be?
Certainly, it is no crime for a lay person who is Ariyan to divulge their status, nor is it a crime for a monastic to do so to his fellow monastics. But honestly, beyond the confines of the student-teacher relationship there is really nothing to gain. You see - When one becomes an Ariyan there is no ego tripping involved, there's no pleasure found in bragging or boasting of attainments, all that stuff is seen for what it is and long since abandoned. The Ariyan's decision making process is rooted in Dhammic cost/benefit analysis. In these dark days when there are almost no Ariyans to be found, those who declare their status e.g. Ven. Nyanavira are met with doubt and scorn. (Even when he was alive the reaction was mostly incredulous. His fellow monastics almost wholeheartedly accused him of over estimating himself or going a wee bit batty with too much solitude, and even more so after his death, despite there clearly being suttas which support the notion that an Ariya is capable of such acts).
I think there are no more than a handful of Ariyans in the world today, I know there are a few that post on a certain forum (not this one mind you) but most of them are monks so I believe they would be keen to avoid the dukkata of telling you.
Certainly, it is no crime for a lay person who is Ariyan to divulge their status, nor is it a crime for a monastic to do so to his fellow monastics. But honestly, beyond the confines of the student-teacher relationship there is really nothing to gain. You see - When one becomes an Ariyan there is no ego tripping involved, there's no pleasure found in bragging or boasting of attainments, all that stuff is seen for what it is and long since abandoned. The Ariyan's decision making process is rooted in Dhammic cost/benefit analysis. In these dark days when there are almost no Ariyans to be found, those who declare their status e.g. Ven. Nyanavira are met with doubt and scorn. (Even when he was alive the reaction was mostly incredulous. His fellow monastics almost wholeheartedly accused him of over estimating himself or going a wee bit batty with too much solitude, and even more so after his death, despite there clearly being suttas which support the notion that an Ariya is capable of such acts).
I think there are no more than a handful of Ariyans in the world today, I know there are a few that post on a certain forum (not this one mind you) but most of them are monks so I believe they would be keen to avoid the dukkata of telling you.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks