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How common is stream entry? - Page 14 - Dhamma Wheel

How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:53 am


divine
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby divine » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:14 am

One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!

Reductor
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Reductor » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:22 am

Last edited by Reductor on Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ben
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Ben » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:24 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Reductor
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Reductor » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:28 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:29 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:33 am


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mikenz66
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:30 am


isle21self
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby isle21self » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:55 am

I feel that people who claim to have become ariyas yet can't describe what they know or came to understand a glaring contradiction.

If we want to know the conduct of ariyas in this area we need look no further than the suttas. Rarely did they ever come out and admit that they were ariyas to anyone even fellow monastics. However, most ariyas were known to be knowledgable about the dhamma. This idea of having experiences yet not being able to give any wisdom on dhamma seems to be opposite of what the suttas indicate an ariya to be.

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BlackBird
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby BlackBird » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:17 am

IF someone were to say: "I am an Ariya" - Would his audience believe him? What would the benefit thereof be?
Certainly, it is no crime for a lay person who is Ariyan to divulge their status, nor is it a crime for a monastic to do so to his fellow monastics. But honestly, beyond the confines of the student-teacher relationship there is really nothing to gain. You see - When one becomes an Ariyan there is no ego tripping involved, there's no pleasure found in bragging or boasting of attainments, all that stuff is seen for what it is and long since abandoned. The Ariyan's decision making process is rooted in Dhammic cost/benefit analysis. In these dark days when there are almost no Ariyans to be found, those who declare their status e.g. Ven. Nyanavira are met with doubt and scorn. (Even when he was alive the reaction was mostly incredulous. His fellow monastics almost wholeheartedly accused him of over estimating himself or going a wee bit batty with too much solitude, and even more so after his death, despite there clearly being suttas which support the notion that an Ariya is capable of such acts).

I think there are no more than a handful of Ariyans in the world today, I know there are a few that post on a certain forum (not this one mind you) but most of them are monks so I believe they would be keen to avoid the dukkata of telling you.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

divine
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby divine » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:43 am

One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!

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James the Giant
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby James the Giant » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:12 am

Divine, I think a lot of this skepticism and doubt about your experience could have been avoided, if you had given a really clear detailed explanation of exactly what happened, exactly what you experienced, both on the physical and mental levels.
Then it would have been much more simple to refer to the ancient texts and compare "Ah yes, this fulfills all the criteria for Stream Entry", or "No, that was not Stream Entry because it lacked these aspects..." etc etc.
Instead you have kept it a secret for some reason, and maybe people have reacted to that.
Just my 2 cents.
Best wishes, and keep going!
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.

divine
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby divine » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:29 am

Yes, I accept that. But don't you think people would still be as sceptical? One thing we have learned by now is that stream entry appears to be very, very rare. And for the answers to the rest of your question, it is my intention to leave a lot left to hang when I already have mentioned something about it. It would no matter how clearly I would have written it, with perfect recollection of the buddhist terms in every level of insight, still would have been no match for scepticism. It is the things in between that matters. Just as in the true Dhamma.

I think I have said what is to be said at this point (this time as well).
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!

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tiltbillings
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:36 am


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khlawng
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby khlawng » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:55 am

Hi Divine,

We each have our own path. What I hope you don't do is to get discourage by your experience here and give up.

Having said that, as I see it, most of the folks here are seniors and have quite a fair bit of years of dhamma experience and have much wisdom. In the monestary setting, regardless of age and experience, one pay respect to a senior base on the number of rain retreats he has been through. It is a similiar setting in our dhamma class. I pay respect to my seniors, regardless of their accomplishments and age simply because they have much more experience then I have. Maybe that is something you ought to take note.

Sometimes, our point of view may differ from one another but ultimately, all aspires to reach the same point. None of the posters here on this forum means you ill will or harm. They are merely tring to advise you base on their experiences although the way they put it across may differ. You need to take them all in and process this with the newly acquired wisdom and see what is best for yourself.

My advise, and in accordance with most views here, is for you to start engaging someone in the real world to guide you along.

All the best and may you achieve your goal this lifetime.

Reductor
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Reductor » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:53 am


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reflection
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby reflection » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:37 am


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mirco
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby mirco » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:38 pm

Read what Ajahn Maha Boowa (Bhikkhu Ñānasampanno) said about the ariyan states.

Chapter "Ariya Bhumi" (127 ff.) in the book "Kammatthana - Tha Basis of Practice", specially a lot info about being Sotapanna in there.

Whole book (pdf-scan) : http://www.mediafire.com/?to4dyw1lmmz

Peace&Metta,
:-)
"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." -

danieLion
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby danieLion » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:54 am


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khlawng
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby khlawng » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:20 pm



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