How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
divine
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:06 am

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by divine »

Guys, this thread didn't go excactly as I expected. But as it has went I feel it has turned out gradually to a point where it is appropriate to accept the challenge of writing something more indepth about the experience - in order to remove some of the shade for those of you who want to try to do what I have already written.

Allthough it is not so much the experience itself, that just removes doubt and sence of self and all that comes with it, but it is what the experience DID that should be of interest. The interesting thing is that your life have changed entirely, at large you know where to go and what to do, and the gift from the experience is that I encrease my level of understanding. But, I think it's a plus to have a high level of insight in the buddhist teachings and way of life. I believe many of the things I'm learning now, someone with prior knowledge to the scriptures would already attain at entry.

It comes and goes, sometimes the day after the other, sometimes weeks in between. But I just GET things, understands them in accordance to the experience. And the effect is that I am slowly drifting towards something big. Maybe that is why they call it the stream? Anyone?

And about my insight I think I have said enough already. I have gotten so many good advice here about what to do and what to read, and I can assure you, it has my priority - but there is as already said given to me a path. I will drop in here again within a months time to give an update about how things have went, and maybe comment on what has been said here as well. And as I said to tiltbillings:
divine wrote:@ tiltbillings: For all I know about you on the other end of the keyboard, you are a fairly dedicated and fairly diligent guy with quite alot of experience and knowledge. You have been the number one sceptic about this claim of attainment. And that is good, sceptic's are essential in a community. But may I ask you to provide information about what kind of experiences that mimickes the stream entry? Please also say something about how this experience of no self relates to the experience of loss of doubt.

If this misunderstood experience is so common, I think it would be useful to share it on the forum, so other people can be free of their illusion. Use me as your punching bag if that makes it easier. I'll take one for the team!
That is an offer for all of you, let's shed some doubt, and let's be honest. I can take it. Just remember that sutta story about when the Buddha was attacked with verbal daggers and asked to go away by a group of Bikkhus, that thought that when it was a crowd of people shouting the same, nobody could see the ignorance in their own, one voice. Isn't my memory on track here, guys? Wasn't the story something like that?

If anyone want to play the devils advocate, maybe is it a good place to start to look at what it could mean to create habitat for Dhamma and how that would fill a few pieces of the puzzle.

:namaste:
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
User avatar
James the Giant
Posts: 791
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:41 am

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by James the Giant »

Divine, I think a lot of this skepticism and doubt about your experience could have been avoided, if you had given a really clear detailed explanation of exactly what happened, exactly what you experienced, both on the physical and mental levels.
Then it would have been much more simple to refer to the ancient texts and compare "Ah yes, this fulfills all the criteria for Stream Entry", or "No, that was not Stream Entry because it lacked these aspects..." etc etc.
Instead you have kept it a secret for some reason, and maybe people have reacted to that.
Just my 2 cents.
Best wishes, and keep going!
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
divine
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:06 am

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by divine »

Yes, I accept that. But don't you think people would still be as sceptical? One thing we have learned by now is that stream entry appears to be very, very rare. And for the answers to the rest of your question, it is my intention to leave a lot left to hang when I already have mentioned something about it. It would no matter how clearly I would have written it, with perfect recollection of the buddhist terms in every level of insight, still would have been no match for scepticism. It is the things in between that matters. Just as in the true Dhamma.

I think I have said what is to be said at this point (this time as well).
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by tiltbillings »

divine wrote:
divine wrote:@ tiltbillings: For all I know about you on the other end of the keyboard, you are a fairly dedicated and fairly diligent guy with quite alot of experience and knowledge. You have been the number one sceptic about this claim of attainment. And that is good, sceptic's are essential in a community. But may I ask you to provide information about what kind of experiences that mimickes the stream entry? Please also say something about how this experience of no self relates to the experience of loss of doubt.

If this misunderstood experience is so common, I think it would be useful to share it on the forum, so other people can be free of their illusion. Use me as your punching bag if that makes it easier. I'll take one for the team!
That is an offer for all of you, let's shed some doubt, and let's be honest.
I already did. The problem is you understand so little of this business, you do not see it. Also, you have written a lot, but said next to nothing, to be honest. It is starting to feel like you are jerking us around with this.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
khlawng
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:28 pm

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by khlawng »

Hi Divine,

We each have our own path. What I hope you don't do is to get discourage by your experience here and give up.

Having said that, as I see it, most of the folks here are seniors and have quite a fair bit of years of dhamma experience and have much wisdom. In the monestary setting, regardless of age and experience, one pay respect to a senior base on the number of rain retreats he has been through. It is a similiar setting in our dhamma class. I pay respect to my seniors, regardless of their accomplishments and age simply because they have much more experience then I have. Maybe that is something you ought to take note.

Sometimes, our point of view may differ from one another but ultimately, all aspires to reach the same point. None of the posters here on this forum means you ill will or harm. They are merely tring to advise you base on their experiences although the way they put it across may differ. You need to take them all in and process this with the newly acquired wisdom and see what is best for yourself.

My advise, and in accordance with most views here, is for you to start engaging someone in the real world to guide you along.

All the best and may you achieve your goal this lifetime.
Reductor
Posts: 1382
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:52 am
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Reductor »

divine wrote:Yes, I accept that. But don't you think people would still be as sceptical? One thing we have learned by now is that stream entry appears to be very, very rare. And for the answers to the rest of your question, it is my intention to leave a lot left to hang when I already have mentioned something about it. It would no matter how clearly I would have written it, with perfect recollection of the buddhist terms in every level of insight, still would have been no match for scepticism. It is the things in between that matters. Just as in the true Dhamma.

I think I have said what is to be said at this point (this time as well).
Hey divine,

There is a sutta where the Buddha speaks about knowing other people's qualities. In it he states that a person's virtue is known only after long association, while their wisdom is known only after much discussion with him or her. (pardon me for not offering a link -- I'm terrible for finding these things online )

It is the lack of long association and the lack of much discussion that arouses scepticism on my part. I just don't know you at all, either in the physical world or online. How can you expect me to accept that your statements point to some genuine quality of yours otherwise not discernible?

:shrug:

With respect, you haven't earned any trust from me or anyone else here. I emphasis "with respect", because this is not a slight against you. It is a fact I can say about most people who post here.

Consider that I've read thousands of Tilt's posts, and thousands of posts from other members here. Among those posters there are a handful who I think may be ariya. That is, if they said that they were, I'd take them at their word simply because I have come to know a bit about them. I know that they are upright with truth, to the point, knowledgable, and many other things besides. (but I'm an internet baby, so to speak -- the net is almost totally real to me, while it may seem to others to be an insubstantial foundation for such confident assessment.)

Likewise, Tilt has met people that he strongly believes to by ariya, yet they hadn't, so far as I'm aware, claimed themselves as being such. Yet, he feels confident because he has come to know them to some degree.

See what I mean?

Perhaps you can request from the mod-staff a reset on your membership, and then begin to delve into the community here. Certainly you'll find there is much here for you to learn in terms of dhamma theory, if nothing else.
User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by reflection »

divine wrote:Guys, this thread didn't go excactly as I expected.
It's always good to get something you didn't expect. The people here are generally very kind and compassionate. So consider that. Maybe the replies here were with a reason. As said, people here have a lot of experience; including (indirect) experience of overestimation of our place at the path and the consequences it can bring if one gets stuck in that view.

My advice: Don't get sucked up in your experience. Don't even regard it as having attained stream entry. Just practice. There is nothing to be gained and there is nothing big to float towards. Seeing the dhamma will make you float away from everything.

I don't say this to disprove you. I don't care if you are right or wrong; as I've said; stream entry is worthless, stream entry is "fish sauce". I'm just trying to help because it seems very unlikely you are sotapanna. It's much more probable that you are mistaken.

And to be honest, I don't really see what better you could get out of this discussion.

Metta, Reflection
User avatar
mirco
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by mirco »

Read what Ajahn Maha Boowa (Bhikkhu Ñānasampanno) said about the ariyan states.

Chapter "Ariya Bhumi" (127 ff.) in the book "Kammatthana - Tha Basis of Practice", specially a lot info about being Sotapanna in there.

Whole book (pdf-scan) : http://www.mediafire.com/?to4dyw1lmmz" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Peace&Metta,
:-)
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by danieLion »

If I had just this Bhikkhu Bodhi lecture

http://bodhimonastery.org/sutta-nipata.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, lecture 3

to go by, I'd say stream entry is EXTREMELY COMMON.

Regarding the passage in Sn 2.1:
An Indra pillar, planted in the earth,
that even the four winds cannot shake:
that, I tell you, is like the person of integrity,
who — having comprehended
the noble truths — sees.
This, too, is an exquisite treasure in the Sangha.
By this truth may there be well-being.
Ven. says that making this breakthrough to the four noble truths is Nikaya "code" for stream entry, and at 20:15, states,
"Now what, exactly, does this mean? You might think it means that the sotapanna must have a mind of perfect equanimity, a mind that can't be shaken by gain and loss, praise and blame, pleasure and pain. If that's what you think, your'e wrong...."
He then goes on to enumerate several ways sotapannas may misbehave, including having sex.

This, in addition to Retro's points above lead me to believe that while attaining stream entry might be difficult it is by no means impossible; and--probably most importantly--that the degree of difficulty usually attributed to attaining stream entry is largely exaggerated.
Best wishes,
Daniel
User avatar
khlawng
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:28 pm

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by khlawng »

danieLion wrote: This, in addition to Retro's points above lead me to believe that while attaining stream entry might be difficult it is by no means impossible; and--probably most importantly--that the degree of difficulty usually attributed to attaining stream entry is largely exaggerated.
Best wishes,
Daniel
I am beginning to wonder, if this difference in view, is dependant on whether the tradition is base on Thai Theravada or Sri Lanka Theravada. It seems to me that the Thai Theravadians generally view Sotappana attainment as a extremenly difficult attainment, closer to perfection wheras the Sri Lankans don't view it as such.

Any takers?
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by mikenz66 »

I'm not sure how one judges who view these things as difficult. How do you judge how "difficult" these things are viewed as? If you consult Burmese sources (such as Mahasi Sayadaw) and Thai source (such as Ajahn Maha Bua) they are certainly talked about as if they are quite possible.

:anjali:
Mike
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by danieLion »

khlawng wrote:I am beginning to wonder, if this difference in view, is dependant on whether the tradition is base on Thai Theravada or Sri Lanka Theravada. It seems to me that the Thai Theravadians generally view Sotappana attainment as a extremenly difficult attainment, closer to perfection wheras the Sri Lankans don't view it as such.
This seems to contradict Ajahn Chah's equivocation on the matter.
Kind regards,
Daniel
User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by reflection »

khlawng wrote:
danieLion wrote: This, in addition to Retro's points above lead me to believe that while attaining stream entry might be difficult it is by no means impossible; and--probably most importantly--that the degree of difficulty usually attributed to attaining stream entry is largely exaggerated.
Best wishes,
Daniel
I am beginning to wonder, if this difference in view, is dependant on whether the tradition is base on Thai Theravada or Sri Lanka Theravada. It seems to me that the Thai Theravadians generally view Sotappana attainment as a extremenly difficult attainment, closer to perfection wheras the Sri Lankans don't view it as such.

Any takers?
Answering this question would generalize two things. First it generalizes both traditions, and second -and I think more important- it would generalize the difficulty people have to loose self view. For some it may be easy, for some it may be though. Some are very attached to certain ideas of a self, others are not. There is no need to make a general statement about this. All we have to train is our own mind, no need to worry or get caught up in the ideas of others.

At least, that's how I like to reflect on it.

With metta,
Reflection
santa100
Posts: 6799
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by santa100 »

The Seven Factors of Stream Entry in MN 48 should provide pretty good metrics to evaluate whether one has "entered the stream" or not..

http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Kosambiya_Sutta" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
Viscid
Posts: 931
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:55 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Viscid »

I just found this message from Upasaka Culadasa in the 'jhana insight' yahoo! group from 2009, and it's absolutely brilliant and relevant to the original topic of this discussion:

Matheesha writes: Would you be able to expand upon

1) how a magga-phala moment can be identified

2) how a sotapanna has changed (you briefly note this above)


Culadasa: ...your second question involves the changes that subsequently take place in a sotapanna, I want to take this opportunity to share with you some questions I have with regard to the relationship between magga-phala and sotapanna. I assume that for the most part what we are talking about here are magga-phala experiences that are the culmination of an extensive period of intense practice according to one of the traditional Buddhist paths to Awakening, and as such, the individual becomes a Sotapanna following the magga-phala event. But there are two questions I want to raise here. First, are magga-phala events always and exclusively the result of Buddhist practices? And second, does an individual always become a Sotapanna following a magga-phala event? I have come to think that experiences identical to what we call magga-phala can and sometimes do occur in consequence of non-Buddhist methods of training; that they can spontaneously occur without any formal training at all as a result of intense periods of profound suffering, compassion, or devotion for example; and further, that it can even happen unexpectedly with no apparent cause. I am sure not everyone agrees with me on this, but please consider it for the moment as a hypothesis. I have also become convinced that in order for a magga-phala experience to constitute stream entry, it is essential that the experience saturate to the very core of the yogi’s mind, and that requires either or both of a prolonged abiding in phala and a frequent repetition of the phala experience in order to make a sufficiently lasting imprint on the mind. If this doesn’t happen, the ‘magga-phala’ event becomes a one-time, memorable, peak experience that may perhaps permanently change the person in certain ways, but without irrevocably setting them on a path to eventual full Enlightenment.

It would seem from the scriptures that, once knowledge has replaced ignorance through direct experience, an irreversible change has been rendered such that even if death follows immediately after magga-phala, full Enlightenment is assured in a future rebirth. I don’t know, and so I can’t speak to that, but experience and observation tell me that the fruit of the original magga-phala experience must be firmly established and carefully nurtured through repetition if it is not to become smothered over time, and if true Stream Entry is to occur. Any habitual patterns of egocentric behavior and thinking that were not destroyed prior to magga-phala will reassert themselves afterwards whenever the right conditions are present, and so the work of the Stream Entrant is to apply Path Knowledge to their recognition and eradication. Desire and aversion are still present, and the Stream Entrant must therefore apply his/her understanding of sunnata and annata to their attenuation. This is where the ‘saturation of the mind’ with the experience of phala comes in. The advantage of traditional Buddhist trainings is that they are systematic and results are repeatable, therefore the phala experience can be achieved again and again, and if the yogi is trained in Samatha, even the initial experience can last long enough to make a very deep imprint on the psyche.

Another important advantage the Buddhist yogi has is in the nature of the conceptual formations by which s/he will understand and interpret his/her experience, due to the training that led up to it. S/He will be more inclined to focus on the emptiness of perceived phenomena rather than spending time reflecting and conceptualizing in search of the ‘absolute’ and the ‘ultimate’ within the experience; to reflect on the direct experience of the absence of any inherent sense of self, rather than projecting a new self-identification upon reflections of the experience; and to be mindful of the unsatisfactoriness and suffering of all conditioned states, rather than dwelling on the desirability of the bliss of Nibbana. I think this is essential for full Stream Entry as opposed to just dallying in the eddies at the edge of the Stream.

If I am correct in thinking that some of these experiences occurring outside of the Buddhist paradigm are in fact magga-phala, then it seems possible that magga-phala may not always result in achieving Stream Entry, or at least a Stream Entry that manifests in this lifetime. And if that is true, then it also raises the possibility that even some Buddhist practitioners may experience magga-phala, but without sufficient foundation and guidance for it to result in Stream Entry. Particularly vulnerable are yogis whose meditative skills are inadequate in terms of sustaining and repeating the experience of Fruition consciousness, or who lack the opportunity to practice phala samapatti subsequent to the initial experience.

So, having done with that digression, let’s now see what sorts of comments can be made with regard to how a magga-phala ‘event’ might be identified. This is not, unfortunately, something that has been often enough discussed. Of limited value are those often terse and archaic descriptions that have been translated from other languages, those descriptions that are rife with hyperbole and mystical nuance, and also those that are so laden with flowery language and poetic metaphor that they can’t possibly say the same thing to any two individuals, all of which are difficult to interpret in a particularly useful way! Although this is a topic that has become almost taboo to speak openly about, I strongly agree with you that there is a legitimate need to do so. Not uncommonly, some person will have an unusual and profoundly transforming experience that they think may have been magga-phala, but either do not have access to a teacher from whom they can seek guidance, or else their teacher lacks the right combination of knowledge and personal experience to able to help them. And anyone in the role of teacher who has a student who may have had a ‘real’ or ‘valid’ magga-phala experience would certainly like to be able to advise them and will welcome any additional information. In either case, whether it is our own or someone else’s experience, the situation is that we are trying to evaluate an experience based on a description of the indescribable. This description will inevitably be a reflection more than anything else of the words, concepts, views and expectations of the person who has had the experience, and we need to keep that in mind.

To begin with, we must be very sensitive to just how closely the description echoes those pre-existing expectations, because the closer they are, the better the fit with expectations, the more likely what has occurred is not magga-phala, but rather a projection by the ever-hopeful mind onto some other kind of strong psycho-emotional experience. In particular, if the basis for thinking that the experience might have been magga-phala is that it is ‘just like what I have read and heard about”, it probably is not. Far more likely it is that one will say “Despite what I have read and heard, it’s not at all what I was expecting”. A sense of awe and surprise, even consternation is appropriate, and especially some astonishment at the unexpected simplicity of what has been experienced.

But I suggest this only as sort of a guideline, not as a hard and fast rule. I am convinced, for reasons I won’t go into here, that there are individuals whose depth of Insight is so great and has become so well established in their intuitive understanding of themselves and the world that magga-phala is a ‘non-event’ for them. It is as though they have been peeking under the curtain for so long that when it is finally lifted, they are not at all surprised by what they find.

And then, also, there are those instances where an event that seems in retrospect to have been magga-phala does not register that strongly and clearly, leaving the yogi only with the vague and uncertain feeling that something very unusual has happened, but completely unable to say quite what it was.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
Post Reply