Starting to nod off during meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Starting to nod off during meditation

Post by Nyana »

daverupa wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:take a short break between sits
Am I correct to find that descriptions in the Suttas suggest "walking up and down" (imo, more appropriately "a period of sampajañña") interspersed throughout ānāpānasati? Perhaps only during the day, while longer periods bracketed the middle watch of the night...?
Can you elaborate?
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Starting to nod off during meditation

Post by mikenz66 »

Perhaps Dave is referring to passages like:
Vigilance

"As soon, brahman, as a monk is moderate in eating, the Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, dwell intent on vigilance; during the day while pacing up and down, while sitting down, cleanse the mind of obstructive mental states; during the middle watch of the night, lie down on the right side in the lion posture, foot resting on foot, mindful, clearly conscious, reflecting on the thought of getting up again; during the last watch of the night, when you have arisen, while pacing up and down, while sitting down, cleanse the mind of obstructive mental states.'

Mindfulness and clear consciousness

"As soon, brahman, as a monk is intent on vigilance, the Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, be possessed of mindfulness and clear consciousness, acting with clear consciousness whether you are approaching or departing, acting with clear consciousness whether you are looking ahead or looking round, acting with clear consciousness whether you are bending in or stretching out [the arms], acting with clear consciousness whether you are carrying the outer cloak, the bowl or robe, acting with clear consciousness whether you are eating, drinking, munching, savoring, acting with clear consciousness whether you are obeying the calls of nature, acting with clear consciousness whether you are walking, standing, sitting, asleep, awake, talking or being silent.'
Sounds very much like the usual instructions on a modern retreat...

:anjali:
Mike
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Starting to nod off during meditation

Post by daverupa »

mikenz66 wrote:Perhaps Dave is referring to passages like:
Precisely so! :anjali:

So, if this structure is also what guides ones solitary practice, that kusala structure is then by definition beneficial to this or that extent in the elimination of such things as drowsiness, and other impediments (the main capitulation to the householder is the necessity of more sleep). But I wanted to verify whether it was attested as such.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Starting to nod off during meditation

Post by Nyana »

daverupa wrote:Am I correct to find that descriptions in the Suttas suggest "walking up and down" (imo, more appropriately "a period of sampajañña") interspersed throughout ānāpānasati? Perhaps only during the day, while longer periods bracketed the middle watch of the night...?
daverupa wrote:So, if this structure is also what guides ones solitary practice, that kusala structure is then by definition beneficial to this or that extent in the elimination of such things as drowsiness, and other impediments (the main capitulation to the householder is the necessity of more sleep). But I wanted to verify whether it was attested as such.
I don't recall ever coming across any explicit instructions in the suttas or commentaries outlining a schedule or regimen for alternating between sitting and walking meditation, etc., but it's easy enough to construct such a schedule from what's given in the suttas, and I think it's quite possible that this was how the early monastics spent much of their day in seclusion.
FrancesB
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 5:41 am

Re: Starting to nod off during meditation

Post by FrancesB »

I am just reading a book of Ani Tenzin Palmo's talks. She suggests several things: eyes open, be in a cool environment, avoid heavy meals before meditation, placing a small dish of cold water on top of your head and finally she tells about a friend who meditated sitting on the edge of a deep well and never had drowsiness problems!
Those last two are completely new to me, and I suspect that I would then become distracted rather than drowsy!
User avatar
bodom
Posts: 7215
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Starting to nod off during meditation

Post by bodom »

From Ajahn Chah:
Q: I feel sleepy a great deal. It makes it hard to meditate.

Answer:There are many ways to overcome sleepiness. If you are sitting in the dark, move to a lighted place. Open your eyes. Get up and wash your face or take a bath. If you are sleepy, change postures. Walk a lot. Walk backwards. The fear of running into things will keep you awake. If this fails, stand still, clear the mind and imagine it is full daylight. Or sit on the edge of a high cliff or deep well. You won't dare sleep! If nothing works, then just go to sleep. Lay down carefully and try to be aware until the moment you fall asleep. Then as you awaken, get right up. Don't look at the clock or roll over. Start mindfulness from the moment you awaken. If you find yourself sleepy everyday, try to eat less. Examine yourself. As soon as five more spoonfuls will make you full, stop. Then take water until just properly full. Go and sit. Watch your sleepiness and hunger. You must learn to balance your eating.
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
User avatar
manas
Posts: 2678
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Starting to nod off during meditation

Post by manas »

Hi snufkin,

only very rarely will I sit meditation with anything still inside my stomach. I time meditation so the stomach is totally empty (of any solid food) before I start. Practically speaking, that usually means just before either breakfast, lunch or dinner. Waking up early, having just rested adequately, helps also, as does washing one's face in cold water and going for a walk outside in the cool, fresh morning air, before you come back inside to sit meditation.

with metta

manas. _/I\_
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
User avatar
khlawng
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:28 pm

Re: Starting to nod off during meditation

Post by khlawng »

Walking meditation as suggested by a lot of folks here is a good way to fight sleepiness.

But honestly, I would like to suggest going to sleep. Your mind and body is telling you that it needs some rest so just go to sleep. Set the alarm for an hour or two and then wake up fresh to meditate again. Don't feel like you are chickening out or anything like that. By taking a nap, you are providing optimum factors to train the mind when you wake up. Time is precious to all of us so why spend time trying to fight off sleepiness for a little quality meditation when you can sleep it off and spend quality time meditating later?
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Starting to nod off during meditation

Post by Nyana »

khlawng wrote:But honestly, I would like to suggest going to sleep. Your mind and body is telling you that it needs some rest so just go to sleep. Set the alarm for an hour or two and then wake up fresh to meditate again. Don't feel like you are chickening out or anything like that. By taking a nap, you are providing optimum factors to train the mind when you wake up. Time is precious to all of us so why spend time trying to fight off sleepiness for a little quality meditation when you can sleep it off and spend quality time meditating later?
Drowsiness can arise because one actually needs sleep. This is true. But often times this isn't the case. What can occur, especially at a particular stage in one's practice, is that during sitting meditation the mind begins to calm down a bit from it's habitual restlessness, and then, because it's not used to remaining in this calmness with wakeful clarity, the mind begins to lapse into dullness, followed by drowsiness. This is the hindrance of lethargy and drowsiness (thīnamiddha). If one just gives in to this drowsiness then this can impede further development. Therefore, remedial practices should be used to refresh the mind in order to remain awake, calm, and clear.
User avatar
Khalil Bodhi
Posts: 2250
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:32 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: Starting to nod off during meditation

Post by Khalil Bodhi »

I had a horrible problem with drowsiness for years. Besides changing my eating habits one thing I found that work really well was taking a 7 to 15 minute power nap as it were. Obviously this only works if you are truly physically tired and it's not simply a hindrance but you have to try it to find out and become familiar with your mind and body. I feel that 1 or 2 hours would just be far too long and certainly wouldn't fit into my schedule. Anyway, those are my two cents. Every good blessing!
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

The Stoic Buddhist: https://www.quora.com/q/dwxmcndlgmobmeu ... pOR2p0uAdH
My Practice Blog:
http://khalilbodhi.wordpress.com
dhamma follower
Posts: 354
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:48 am

Re: Starting to nod off during meditation

Post by dhamma follower »

Snufkin wrote:Had this problem for a little while, it doesn't happen every time I meditate, but it's started to be more frequent. I'll be following my breath, and then next minute I feel like I'm almost being nudged backwards and I realise I had stopped following my breath and started to nod off to sleep. This happens even when I'm not very tired. I try to renew my focus on breathing and continue, but it often happens again. It seems to have only started to happen when I increased my meditation time to 30 minutes.

Nothing in MIPE seems to really address the issue properly. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Thank you.
Hi Snufkin,

According to U Tejaniya's POV, when this situation happens, especially when you are not tired, it is a sign that there's not enough interest ...the minds feels calm and just goes to sleep...

The advice he would give to yogis in that case is to:
- stimulate one's interest: you should try to understand more about the nature of the breath, the nature of your drowsiness. When the mind has more interest,it will be easier for it to stay alert.
- ask your self questions from time to time: Am I still aware, what is the quality of the awareness right now? Because nodding off doesn't come all of a sudden, it is a gradual process. So if you can recognize drowsiness when it just first set in, still very gently, then you can invite it out (actually it will go away by it-self if it is seen). Drowsiness usually comes because of the liking of the calmness, so watch out for that liking (lobha), and look deeply, because lobha is very deep rooted in our mind!

Like all dhammas, drowsiness has its own conditions to arise, you are the best person to figure out those conditions in your own situation. With understanding, defilements will have less chance to arise...

Regards,

D.F
Snufkin
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 11:53 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Starting to nod off during meditation

Post by Snufkin »

Many amazing replies. Thank you all very much.
I have definitely found meditating on an empty stomach has helped a lot, and the breath techniques Bhante G describes in Mindfulness seem to have helped too.

Only problem of late, there have been many outside distractions cutting my sessions short.

Meditation sure can be tricky.
nobody12345
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:05 am

Re: Starting to nod off during meditation

Post by nobody12345 »

If I may, I would like to add one more tip.
That is cutting down carbohydrate, especially the form of carbohydrate known as sugar (i.e. simple carbohydrate).
It reduces sleepiness big time.
My Dhamma practice has been continuously improving for past 2 years and this diet technique is one of the contributing factors of that success.
You might worry about low carbohydrate intake since some scientists raise concern about it stating carbohydrate is the basic fuel to run the brain.
So they believe low carbohydrate will effect the brain in negative manner.
So let me share my own experience and take it as reference, if you will.
According to World Health Organization's (WHO) recommended dosage of carbohydrate intake, it's 309.25 grams a day.
I have been eating only 140 grams of carbohydrates for a couple of months and before that, was eating around 160 grams of carbohydrate for more than one year.
(I know the amount precisely since I have been eating the exact same foods every single day for closer to 2 years so far. I did this in order to destroy the desire for foods. And it worked for me. My craving for foods is gone. Now I just see them as fuel to maintain my practice and to perform daily duty.)
So you can say that my carbohydrate intake is very low according to WHO.
I have been doing this only to improve alertness and mindfulness.
And it DID help tremendously to improve my alertness and mindfuless.
The only concern (according to scientists) should be that the brain function (memory retention and etc.) deterioration according to them.
And let me assure you with the direct example of mine.
I am currently preparing to take the last exam to obtain a certificaton of the Court Interpreter.
And that is widely regarded as one of the most challenging area of interpretation.
So I do various tests to assess my 'short term memory retention' and 'the processing speed of unstructured information'.
And let me tell you.
My performance is mind boggling.
I am 41 years old and my brain is more fresh and quick responding than I used to be in my teenage years.
When I started reduce carbohydrate, my goal was improving my Dhamma practice.
However, now I got a side effect of which is the brain that is so well performing without the recommended amount of carbohydrate.
This was not my goal but I have to admit that this is one of the best side effect I ever had.

To sum it up, cutting down carbohydrate intake (especially sugar/ fruit sugar/ corn sugar) is the technique that can be useful if you want to reduce sleepiness and improve alertness.
I think reduced sleepiness is a great benefit for Dhamma practitioners since it leaves us more time to practice fully alert and mindful.

Hope this tip might help some of readers.
Post Reply