Literality of The Gradual Training

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danieLion
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Post by danieLion »

The more I read the suttas the more it seems like calling it THE Gradual Training is a misnomer. It might be more accurate to call it a gradualist style of training because the actual application of "the" method varies wildly.
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Daniel
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mikenz66
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Post by mikenz66 »

Well, sure, a skilful teacher varies the training according to the student.

From the Sutta I quoted above:
"It is possible, brahman, to lay down a gradual training, a gradual doing, a gradual practice in respect of this dhamma and discipline, Brahman, even a skilled trainer of horses, having taken on a beautiful thoroughbred first of all gets it used to the training in respect of wearing the bit. Then he gets it used to further training — even so brahman, the Tathagata, having taken on a man to be tamed, first of all disciplines him thus: ...
:anjali:
MIke
danieLion
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Post by danieLion »

mikenz66 wrote:Well, sure, a skilful teacher varies the training according to the student.

From the Sutta I quoted above:
"It is possible, brahman, to lay down a gradual training, a gradual doing, a gradual practice in respect of this dhamma and discipline, Brahman, even a skilled trainer of horses, having taken on a beautiful thoroughbred first of all gets it used to the training in respect of wearing the bit. Then he gets it used to further training — even so brahman, the Tathagata, having taken on a man to be tamed, first of all disciplines him thus: ...
:anjali:
MIke
Hi Mike,
Right. But my main point stands. The broader sutta context does not support referring to it as "THE" gradual training. Perhaps I'm being to literal?
Best wishes,
Daniel
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mikenz66
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Post by mikenz66 »

danieLion wrote:But my main point stands. The broader sutta context does not support referring to it as "THE" gradual training. Perhaps I'm being to literal?
I think so. The Buddha taught differently to different audiences.

:anjali:
Mike
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Cittasanto
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Post by Cittasanto »

ground wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
ground wrote: So it is important to know that it is volition that determines what is possible or not.

kind regards
Forgive me if I am miss understanding you but, there is more to life than just Kamma, circumstance, disease & natural phenomena also conditioning factors, not everything results from Kamma.
No problem. This is not the first time you misinterpret my words. :)

The context of
gound wrote:So it is important to know that it is volition that determines what is possible or not.
is
gound wrote:Yes. One may suspect and/or believe and/or hope ... but one will never be able to get evidence even if volitional affirmation of one's belief or hope arises.

Kind regards
Hi Ground
That doesn't change what I thought you were saying, there are other factors in the world other that kamma alone which determines what is possible.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
daverupa
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Post by daverupa »

"A graduated training" works. It encompasses the ossified ariya classification scheme as well as the more general schemas of graduated training.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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ground
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Post by ground »

Cittasanto wrote:Hi Ground
That doesn't change what I thought you were saying, ...
I did not expect that your perception to change. :smile:

Cittasanto wrote: there are other factors in the world other that kamma alone which determines what is possible.
Well neither have I applied the term "kamma" nor have I been talking about the idea "kamma". I have been talking about ideas clinging to themselves which I have called "volition".

Besides what is your idea of "other factors"?
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kind regards
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Ground
ground wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Hi Ground
That doesn't change what I thought you were saying, ...
I did not expect that your perception to change. :smile:
it was taken into account anyway.
Cittasanto wrote: there are other factors in the world other that kamma alone which determines what is possible.
Well neither have I applied the term "kamma" nor have I been talking about the idea "kamma". I have been talking about ideas clinging to themselves which I have called "volition".
Sounds more like fabrications (sankhara)
and volition (cetana) is Kamma btw.
Besides what is your idea of "other factors"?
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kind regards
what do you think that quote says regarding the other factors I note?

Circumstance is the situations we are in, not all by our volition, be it the season, or how others treat us.
Disease is illness, something we do not volitionally bring upon ourselves, as in the three humours or a combination of the three.
carelessness is things that happen due to not paying attention, unwittingly done.
see SN36.21 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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ground
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Post by ground »

Cittasanto wrote:
Besides what is your idea of "other factors"?
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kind regards
what do you think that quote says regarding the other factors I note?
"Other factors" qua concept (i.e. idea) as factors that determine an effect or effects (this is the context here) either corresponds to forms, sounds, aromas ... (an idea may only correspond but can never be a form, sound etc.) or cannot be affirmed as "being more" than just an idea. "being more" is misleading since an idea can never be "more" than just an idea, "being more" just implies that there is a sense impression regarding the 5 senses which corresponds and conventionally (i.e. across several human individuals) may entail the idea "other factors" and the symbols "other factors" as means of linguistic expression. The latter (sense impression of the 5 senses ... - > idea and linguistic expression) is just an instance of dependent origination.
Cittasanto wrote: Circumstance is the situations we are in, not all by our volition, be it the season, or how others treat us.
Disease is illness, something we do not volitionally bring upon ourselves, as in the three humours or a combination of the three.
carelessness is things that happen due to not paying attention, unwittingly done.
see SN36.21 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Pretty ordinary ideas.

Kind regards
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Post by Cittasanto »

ground wrote: "Other factors" qua concept (i.e. idea) as factors that determine an effect or effects (this is the context here) either corresponds to forms, sounds, aromas ... (an idea may only correspond but can never be a form, sound etc.) or cannot be affirmed as "being more" than just an idea. "being more" is misleading since an idea can never be "more" than just an idea, "being more" just implies that there is a sense impression regarding the 5 senses which corresponds and conventionally (i.e. across several human individuals) may entail the idea "other factors" and the symbols "other factors" as means of linguistic expression. The latter (sense impression of the 5 senses ... - > idea and linguistic expression) is just an instance of dependent origination.
there are concepts and reality. concepts should explain reality in relation to reality, i.e., the experiential, and show a way of working with or understanding reality.
Qualities do not develop on their own, and require a training, what should be developed and why, or even how things should be looked at (right view) can be understood through such concepts, and their usefulness can be gauged through such concepts, a practicable theory rather than an intellectual exercise.
Cittasanto wrote: Circumstance is the situations we are in, not all by our volition, be it the season, or how others treat us.
Disease is illness, something we do not volitionally bring upon ourselves, as in the three humours or a combination of the three.
carelessness is things that happen due to not paying attention, unwittingly done.
see SN36.21 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Pretty ordinary ideas.

Kind regards
yet not accepted by all as seen in MN101.
=================================================

It occurs to me after reading the text (quoted by Mike) a bit more that the gradual training leads one away from worldly to spiritual endeavours in a gradual way. each "step" closing the door on the worldly life, this is more obvious in the gradual instruction, and refining the training. focusing us inward, sharpening the focus, then making the focus all encompassing.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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ground
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Post by ground »

Cittasanto wrote:there are concepts and reality.
Pretty ordinary idea.

Kind regards
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Cittasanto
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Post by Cittasanto »

ground wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:there are concepts and reality.
Pretty ordinary idea.

Kind regards
care to elaborate on that statement?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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ground
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Post by ground »

Cittasanto wrote:
ground wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:there are concepts and reality.
Pretty ordinary idea.

Kind regards
care to elaborate on that statement?
Well what can I say? I acknowledge that there are ideas. You have ideas, I have ideas. Humans have ideas. Ideas originating dependently as consciousness, conditioned by forms (letters), sounds (talking) in the context of further forms (seeing) and sounds (hearing) and aromas (smelling), etc. I can affirm ideas qua ideas. Besides this I can only refer (again) to SN35.23 quoted above.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Post by Cittasanto »

ground wrote: Well what can I say? I acknowledge that there are ideas. You have ideas, I have ideas. Humans have ideas. Ideas originating dependently as consciousness, conditioned by forms (letters), sounds (talking) in the context of further forms (seeing) and sounds (hearing) and aromas (smelling), etc. I can affirm ideas qua ideas. Besides this I can only refer (again) to SN35.23 quoted above.

Kind regards
interesting way to say nothing.
there are concepts.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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