Literality of The Gradual Training

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom

Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Postby daverupa » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:19 am

"A graduated training" works. It encompasses the ossified ariya classification scheme as well as the more general schemas of graduated training.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Postby ground » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:52 am

Cittasanto wrote:Hi Ground
That doesn't change what I thought you were saying, ...


I did not expect that your perception to change. :smile:


Cittasanto wrote:there are other factors in the world other that kamma alone which determines what is possible.

Well neither have I applied the term "kamma" nor have I been talking about the idea "kamma". I have been talking about ideas clinging to themselves which I have called "volition".

Besides what is your idea of "other factors"?
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



Kind regards
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:04 am

Hi Ground
ground wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Hi Ground
That doesn't change what I thought you were saying, ...


I did not expect that your perception to change. :smile:

it was taken into account anyway.

Cittasanto wrote:there are other factors in the world other that kamma alone which determines what is possible.

Well neither have I applied the term "kamma" nor have I been talking about the idea "kamma". I have been talking about ideas clinging to themselves which I have called "volition".

Sounds more like fabrications (sankhara)
and volition (cetana) is Kamma btw.

Besides what is your idea of "other factors"?
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



Kind regards

what do you think that quote says regarding the other factors I note?

Circumstance is the situations we are in, not all by our volition, be it the season, or how others treat us.
Disease is illness, something we do not volitionally bring upon ourselves, as in the three humours or a combination of the three.
carelessness is things that happen due to not paying attention, unwittingly done.
see SN36.21 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-2
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Postby ground » Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:36 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Besides what is your idea of "other factors"?
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



Kind regards

what do you think that quote says regarding the other factors I note?

"Other factors" qua concept (i.e. idea) as factors that determine an effect or effects (this is the context here) either corresponds to forms, sounds, aromas ... (an idea may only correspond but can never be a form, sound etc.) or cannot be affirmed as "being more" than just an idea. "being more" is misleading since an idea can never be "more" than just an idea, "being more" just implies that there is a sense impression regarding the 5 senses which corresponds and conventionally (i.e. across several human individuals) may entail the idea "other factors" and the symbols "other factors" as means of linguistic expression. The latter (sense impression of the 5 senses ... - > idea and linguistic expression) is just an instance of dependent origination.

Cittasanto wrote:Circumstance is the situations we are in, not all by our volition, be it the season, or how others treat us.
Disease is illness, something we do not volitionally bring upon ourselves, as in the three humours or a combination of the three.
carelessness is things that happen due to not paying attention, unwittingly done.
see SN36.21 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-2

Pretty ordinary ideas.

Kind regards
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:44 am

ground wrote:"Other factors" qua concept (i.e. idea) as factors that determine an effect or effects (this is the context here) either corresponds to forms, sounds, aromas ... (an idea may only correspond but can never be a form, sound etc.) or cannot be affirmed as "being more" than just an idea. "being more" is misleading since an idea can never be "more" than just an idea, "being more" just implies that there is a sense impression regarding the 5 senses which corresponds and conventionally (i.e. across several human individuals) may entail the idea "other factors" and the symbols "other factors" as means of linguistic expression. The latter (sense impression of the 5 senses ... - > idea and linguistic expression) is just an instance of dependent origination.

there are concepts and reality. concepts should explain reality in relation to reality, i.e., the experiential, and show a way of working with or understanding reality.
Qualities do not develop on their own, and require a training, what should be developed and why, or even how things should be looked at (right view) can be understood through such concepts, and their usefulness can be gauged through such concepts, a practicable theory rather than an intellectual exercise.

Cittasanto wrote:Circumstance is the situations we are in, not all by our volition, be it the season, or how others treat us.
Disease is illness, something we do not volitionally bring upon ourselves, as in the three humours or a combination of the three.
carelessness is things that happen due to not paying attention, unwittingly done.
see SN36.21 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-2

Pretty ordinary ideas.

Kind regards

yet not accepted by all as seen in MN101.
=================================================

It occurs to me after reading the text (quoted by Mike) a bit more that the gradual training leads one away from worldly to spiritual endeavours in a gradual way. each "step" closing the door on the worldly life, this is more obvious in the gradual instruction, and refining the training. focusing us inward, sharpening the focus, then making the focus all encompassing.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Postby ground » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:00 am

Cittasanto wrote:there are concepts and reality.

Pretty ordinary idea.

Kind regards
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:42 am

ground wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:there are concepts and reality.

Pretty ordinary idea.

Kind regards

care to elaborate on that statement?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Postby ground » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:27 am

Cittasanto wrote:
ground wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:there are concepts and reality.

Pretty ordinary idea.

Kind regards

care to elaborate on that statement?


Well what can I say? I acknowledge that there are ideas. You have ideas, I have ideas. Humans have ideas. Ideas originating dependently as consciousness, conditioned by forms (letters), sounds (talking) in the context of further forms (seeing) and sounds (hearing) and aromas (smelling), etc. I can affirm ideas qua ideas. Besides this I can only refer (again) to SN35.23 quoted above.

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Re: Literality of The Gradual Training

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:51 am

ground wrote:Well what can I say? I acknowledge that there are ideas. You have ideas, I have ideas. Humans have ideas. Ideas originating dependently as consciousness, conditioned by forms (letters), sounds (talking) in the context of further forms (seeing) and sounds (hearing) and aromas (smelling), etc. I can affirm ideas qua ideas. Besides this I can only refer (again) to SN35.23 quoted above.

Kind regards

interesting way to say nothing.
there are concepts.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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