I had another read of the Anapanasati Sutta, and I realised I don't really understand what this means.daverupa wrote:Anapanasati is said to fulfill satipatthana;
Any thoughts?
I had another read of the Anapanasati Sutta, and I realised I don't really understand what this means.daverupa wrote:Anapanasati is said to fulfill satipatthana;
Hi porpoise,porpoise wrote:I've so far been unsuccessful in effectively integrating the 4 tetrads of the Anapanasati Sutta into my daily practice, and I'd appreciate any advice or experience you can offer. Trying to work through the 4 tetrads in say 40 minutes doesn't seem to be practical.
Thanks in anticipation.
Looking at this, I don't think you are expected to go through every single one of these in a single session if you are still in the early stages of training (as I am also). When we have mastered it, then maybe things will be different. But ime, there is much benefit just in developing the first tetrad, until one has sufficient skill in it. To be honest, the first tetrad has been my primary working-ground for quite a while."[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'[2] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'
"[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.'[4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'
"[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.' [12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'[5]
"[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'
it means that all four frames of reference can be practiced using mindfulness of breathingporpoise wrote:I had another read of the Anapanasati Sutta, and I realised I don't really understand what this means.daverupa wrote:Anapanasati is said to fulfill satipatthana;
Any thoughts?
Yes, but as I read the 4 tetrads, some attention remains with the breath throughout the practice, so full attention cannot be given to any of the four frames.marc108 wrote:it means that all four frames of reference can be practiced using mindfulness of breathingporpoise wrote:I had another read of the Anapanasati Sutta, and I realised I don't really understand what this means.daverupa wrote:Anapanasati is said to fulfill satipatthana;
Any thoughts?
Good question. From reading commentaries and talking to practitioners my impression is that the 4 tetrads describe a natural progression and are not intended to be done piece-meal. Or to put it another way, each tetrad depends on the previous one.manas wrote:Hi porpoise,
why do you feel the need to go through all 4 tetrads all in one sitting? I have not heard anywhere that we *must* do this, if we are still early in training. The training as a whole is gradual. Maybe mastery of anapanasati is similarly a gradual process? Here are all four tetrads:
You aren't supposed to be paying attention to the frame, you're supposed to be paying attention to what's being framed. In anapanasati, you are dealing with the breath in one or another of those frames, which is why the "breathes in... breathes out..." persists throughout the instructions. It isn't a matter of partial attention to the breath and partial attention to satipatthana, it is a matter of framing the breath according to satipatthana and practicing in that way. That this is possible is why anapanasati fulfills satipatthana.porpoise wrote:Yes, but as I read the 4 tetrads, some attention remains with the breath throughout the practice, so full attention cannot be given to any of the four frames.
4 tetrads belong to Vipassana, because by looking into the behaviour of 4 tetrads nakedly (without involving concept), you will slowly and passively understand the true nature of 4 tetrads.Yes, but as I read the 4 tetrads, some attention remains with the breath throughout the practice, so full attention cannot be given to any of the four frames.
Thanks, but I'm still not clear. You say that one is "dealing with" the breath in one or another of the frames, but what do you mean by "dealing with" if not paying it some attention? And I don't understand what you mean by "framing the breath according to satipatthana" - could you elaborate?daverupa wrote:You aren't supposed to be paying attention to the frame, you're supposed to be paying attention to what's being framed. In anapanasati, you are dealing with the breath in one or another of those frames, which is why the "breathes in... breathes out..." persists throughout the instructions. It isn't a matter of partial attention to the breath and partial attention to satipatthana, it is a matter of framing the breath according to satipatthana and practicing in that way. That this is possible is why anapanasati fulfills satipatthana.porpoise wrote:Yes, but as I read the 4 tetrads, some attention remains with the breath throughout the practice, so full attention cannot be given to any of the four frames.
Thanks, but there do seem to be different interpretations according to which commentary you read. Some commentaries say that the first 3 tetrads focus on developing sahadhi and jhana, while the 4th tetrad is insight proper ( the references to piti, sukha and "gladdening the mind" in the second and third tetrads seem to support this interpretation, as does the fact that the first reference to anicca comes in the 4th tetrad ).DarwidHalim wrote:4 tetrads belong to Vipassana, because by looking into the behaviour of 4 tetrads nakedly (without involving concept), you will slowly and passively understand the true nature of 4 tetrads.
Yes.porpoise wrote: Your interpretation seems to be based on the assumption that first we develop access concentration using mindfulness of breathing, then we do insight meditation on the 4 frames? Have I got that right?
THis one actually is not using the tetrad for your jhana. That one you are applying some concepts that may look like using tetrads.porpoise wrote: Some commentaries say that the first 3 tetrads focus on developing sahadhi and jhana, while the 4th tetrad is insight proper ( the references to piti, sukha and "gladdening the mind" in the second and third tetrads seem to support this interpretation, as does the fact that the first reference to anicca comes in the 4th tetrad ).
With reference to anapanasati as sixteen steps in four tetrads and remembering that "breathes in... breathes out" is a persistent instruction, consider the third step: "...sensitive to the entire body." Here is where the breath and the body are experienced together, in order that the body becomes calmed due to the calming of the breath.porpoise wrote:You say that one is "dealing with" the breath in one or another of the frames, but what do you mean by "dealing with" if not paying it some attention? And I don't understand what you mean by "framing the breath according to satipatthana" - could you elaborate?
In this way, anapanasati fulfills satipatthana and leads onward to jhana.SN 48.10 wrote:"And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana
Thanks for the thoughtful responses, it's very helpful in developing understanding of this practice.daverupa wrote:(You may wish to make sure there are no objections to this interpretation, prior to becoming too disappointed/enthusiastic about it. In any event, I hope it helps.)
So presumably with your approach one could use any of the 40 meditation objects to develop concentration, and then "do" sattipathana on the four frames? And if one isn't using the breath to develop concentration, then the progression described in the 4 tetrads of the Anapanasati Sutta wouldn't be relevant to the practice?DarwidHalim wrote:Yes.porpoise wrote: Your interpretation seems to be based on the assumption that first we develop access concentration using mindfulness of breathing, then we do insight meditation on the 4 frames? Have I got that right?
This meditation is the one that built on perfect samantha, and slowly you gain your insight through 4 tetrads.
THis one actually is not using the tetrad for your jhana. That one you are applying some concepts that may look like using tetrads.porpoise wrote: Some commentaries say that the first 3 tetrads focus on developing sahadhi and jhana, while the 4th tetrad is insight proper ( the references to piti, sukha and "gladdening the mind" in the second and third tetrads seem to support this interpretation, as does the fact that the first reference to anicca comes in the 4th tetrad ).
The one that make your meditation as samantha and vipassana is not your object.porpoise wrote: So presumably with your approach one could use any of the 40 meditation objects to develop concentration, and then "do" sattipathana on the four frames? And if one isn't using the breath to develop concentration, then the progression described in the 4 tetrads of the Anapanasati Sutta wouldn't be relevant to the practice?
Yes, I see that. But the 4 tetrads are not the same as the 4 frames.DarwidHalim wrote:Therefore, just because you are using 4 tetrads as your meditation, it doesn't mean you are doing vipassana meditation.porpoise wrote: So presumably with your approach one could use any of the 40 meditation objects to develop concentration, and then "do" sattipathana on the four frames? And if one isn't using the breath to develop concentration, then the progression described in the 4 tetrads of the Anapanasati Sutta wouldn't be relevant to the practice?