Integrating the 4 tetrads into daily practice

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Spiny Norman
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Re: Integrating the 4 tetrads into daily practice

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote:Anapanasati is said to fulfill satipatthana;
I had another read of the Anapanasati Sutta, and I realised I don't really understand what this means.
Any thoughts?
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manas
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Re: Integrating the 4 tetrads into daily practice

Post by manas »

porpoise wrote:I've so far been unsuccessful in effectively integrating the 4 tetrads of the Anapanasati Sutta into my daily practice, and I'd appreciate any advice or experience you can offer. Trying to work through the 4 tetrads in say 40 minutes doesn't seem to be practical.
Thanks in anticipation.
Hi porpoise,

why do you feel the need to go through all 4 tetrads all in one sitting? I have not heard anywhere that we *must* do this, if we are still early in training. The training as a whole is gradual. Maybe mastery of anapanasati is similarly a gradual process? Here are all four tetrads:
"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'[2] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

"[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.'[4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'

"[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.' [12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'[5]

"[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'
Looking at this, I don't think you are expected to go through every single one of these in a single session if you are still in the early stages of training (as I am also). When we have mastered it, then maybe things will be different. But ime, there is much benefit just in developing the first tetrad, until one has sufficient skill in it. To be honest, the first tetrad has been my primary working-ground for quite a while.

Just my own opinion & limited experience here, though. Do seek out experienced & qualified guidance from one who has mastered anapanasati.

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marc108
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Re: Integrating the 4 tetrads into daily practice

Post by marc108 »

porpoise wrote:
daverupa wrote:Anapanasati is said to fulfill satipatthana;
I had another read of the Anapanasati Sutta, and I realised I don't really understand what this means.
Any thoughts?
it means that all four frames of reference can be practiced using mindfulness of breathing
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: Integrating the 4 tetrads into daily practice

Post by Spiny Norman »

marc108 wrote:
porpoise wrote:
daverupa wrote:Anapanasati is said to fulfill satipatthana;
I had another read of the Anapanasati Sutta, and I realised I don't really understand what this means.
Any thoughts?
it means that all four frames of reference can be practiced using mindfulness of breathing
Yes, but as I read the 4 tetrads, some attention remains with the breath throughout the practice, so full attention cannot be given to any of the four frames.
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Re: Integrating the 4 tetrads into daily practice

Post by Spiny Norman »

manas wrote:Hi porpoise,
why do you feel the need to go through all 4 tetrads all in one sitting? I have not heard anywhere that we *must* do this, if we are still early in training. The training as a whole is gradual. Maybe mastery of anapanasati is similarly a gradual process? Here are all four tetrads:
Good question. From reading commentaries and talking to practitioners my impression is that the 4 tetrads describe a natural progression and are not intended to be done piece-meal. Or to put it another way, each tetrad depends on the previous one.
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Re: Integrating the 4 tetrads into daily practice

Post by daverupa »

porpoise wrote:Yes, but as I read the 4 tetrads, some attention remains with the breath throughout the practice, so full attention cannot be given to any of the four frames.
You aren't supposed to be paying attention to the frame, you're supposed to be paying attention to what's being framed. In anapanasati, you are dealing with the breath in one or another of those frames, which is why the "breathes in... breathes out..." persists throughout the instructions. It isn't a matter of partial attention to the breath and partial attention to satipatthana, it is a matter of framing the breath according to satipatthana and practicing in that way. That this is possible is why anapanasati fulfills satipatthana.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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DarwidHalim
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Re: Integrating the 4 tetrads into daily practice

Post by DarwidHalim »

Yes, but as I read the 4 tetrads, some attention remains with the breath throughout the practice, so full attention cannot be given to any of the four frames.
4 tetrads belong to Vipassana, because by looking into the behaviour of 4 tetrads nakedly (without involving concept), you will slowly and passively understand the true nature of 4 tetrads.

If you want to fully understand something, of course you should put full attention to it. We can't do half looking at the breathing, half looking at one of four tetrads.

When you are ready to move to 4 tetrads, do you still need to look for breathing? No.

Breathing is just a technique. A technique to make you focus without any sway. Because it is just a technique to make you focus, you can replace that breathing with anything you like, like a blue flower, like a statue of buddha, like a stone. Anything.

But, once you have gain your unsway focus, if you never move from that point, and just following your breathing, you will not make any single progress in wisdom.

You will make a progress in concentration aspect, but not a single aspect in your wisdom aspect.

Once your mindfulness has been sharp and natural, leave your breathing behind. At this point, your breathing is already hardly noticeable.

At that point, if you keep searching for breathing, you have waste your time. Because when you look for breathing, your "unnoticeable" breath will turn to gross breath. This is not good.

The grosser your breathing, the more agitate your mind with concept.
The more unnoticeable your breathing, the clearer your mind (free with concept).


That is the undisputeable basic reality in any pranayama.

Prove it yourself, by holding your breath for 1 minute. Notice your thought. Does it move?

This experiment should give you a confident that the relationship between breathing and movement of thought is one to one.

A very advanced technique to clear your mind is actually holding your breath. However, since this is not taught in Satipatthana, you should rely on the pace of your natural breathing.

Your natural breathing will bring you to the state where your breathing is hardly noticeable.

So, it is very important here, once you achieve that, you should notice your mindfulness. Your mindfulness should be relatively sharp here.

Once you can feel your mind is relatively free from flying concepts, you are ready for 4 tetrads.

The most easiest to understand its true nature is the first one - body. Because body is very gross.
The most difficult to understand its true nature is the last one - mind. Because it is the most subtle one.

In all tetrads that you do, you should slowly notice passively without any concept to get a throughout insight that:
1. In this body, there is no body.
2. In this perception, there is no perception.
3. In this feeling, there is no feeling.
4. In this mind, there is no mind.

4 tetrads actually is equivalent to 2 tetrads. THe first one is body, the rest are the different aspect of mind (perception, feelings, mental formations, etc. - all of them are just the aspect of mind)

When you do the 4 tetrad, you no longer put any single attention to the breathing. If you put it there, you are distracting yourself.

At the end of your 4 tetrad, you should slowly experience directly and nakedly what it means by FALSE APPEARANCES - Appear as if it is something, but actually that something is never truly there.

Ask yourself this question:
Can I say something which look like there, but it is not there as something?

Ordinary people see nothing, but madman see something. That is why he is mad.
Buddha see nothing, but ordinary people see something.

Four tetrads will give you that answer through experience.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Integrating the 4 tetrads into daily practice

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote:
porpoise wrote:Yes, but as I read the 4 tetrads, some attention remains with the breath throughout the practice, so full attention cannot be given to any of the four frames.
You aren't supposed to be paying attention to the frame, you're supposed to be paying attention to what's being framed. In anapanasati, you are dealing with the breath in one or another of those frames, which is why the "breathes in... breathes out..." persists throughout the instructions. It isn't a matter of partial attention to the breath and partial attention to satipatthana, it is a matter of framing the breath according to satipatthana and practicing in that way. That this is possible is why anapanasati fulfills satipatthana.
Thanks, but I'm still not clear. You say that one is "dealing with" the breath in one or another of the frames, but what do you mean by "dealing with" if not paying it some attention? And I don't understand what you mean by "framing the breath according to satipatthana" - could you elaborate?
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Re: Integrating the 4 tetrads into daily practice

Post by Spiny Norman »

DarwidHalim wrote:4 tetrads belong to Vipassana, because by looking into the behaviour of 4 tetrads nakedly (without involving concept), you will slowly and passively understand the true nature of 4 tetrads.
Thanks, but there do seem to be different interpretations according to which commentary you read. Some commentaries say that the first 3 tetrads focus on developing sahadhi and jhana, while the 4th tetrad is insight proper ( the references to piti, sukha and "gladdening the mind" in the second and third tetrads seem to support this interpretation, as does the fact that the first reference to anicca comes in the 4th tetrad ).

Your interpretation seems to be based on the assumption that first we develop access concentration using mindfulness of breathing, then we do insight meditation on the 4 frames? Have I got that right?
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Re: Integrating the 4 tetrads into daily practice

Post by DarwidHalim »

porpoise wrote: Your interpretation seems to be based on the assumption that first we develop access concentration using mindfulness of breathing, then we do insight meditation on the 4 frames? Have I got that right?
Yes.

This meditation is the one that built on perfect samantha, and slowly you gain your insight through 4 tetrads.
porpoise wrote: Some commentaries say that the first 3 tetrads focus on developing sahadhi and jhana, while the 4th tetrad is insight proper ( the references to piti, sukha and "gladdening the mind" in the second and third tetrads seem to support this interpretation, as does the fact that the first reference to anicca comes in the 4th tetrad ).
THis one actually is not using the tetrad for your jhana. That one you are applying some concepts that may look like using tetrads.

Why buddha use 4 tetrads? Because you should realize there is no you. You have no self.

In buddhist theory, human consists of 4 tetrads.

So, by systematically knowing the nature of each tetrad as something not there, at the end of your job, you are moving in a very systematic way to realize to self.

If you can realize that the components that form human, has no self, you can come to direct experience that actually you have no self. No you, no I.

If you don't have that 4 tetrads, how are you going to meditate of no self?
You can't.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
daverupa
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Re: Integrating the 4 tetrads into daily practice

Post by daverupa »

porpoise wrote:You say that one is "dealing with" the breath in one or another of the frames, but what do you mean by "dealing with" if not paying it some attention? And I don't understand what you mean by "framing the breath according to satipatthana" - could you elaborate?
With reference to anapanasati as sixteen steps in four tetrads and remembering that "breathes in... breathes out" is a persistent instruction, consider the third step: "...sensitive to the entire body." Here is where the breath and the body are experienced together, in order that the body becomes calmed due to the calming of the breath.

Calming a function due to calming the breath occurs again at step eight, where perception and feeling are calmed. Prior to this, steps five and six associate the breath with pleasant feeling, rather than the body. You can see how this training retains the use of the breath, yet takes place in a different way.

With the body calm and with feeling and perception calm, the mind in and of itself becomes a salient percept. Step nine is a reminder to pay attention in that way, and a subtle connection between the mind and the breath can be discerned, in the same way that a connection between body/breath is almost obvious, while feeling/breath was also noticeable but much more subtle. During the second tetrad, however, the "...in, ...out" component of the breath was noticed to have a mental component (step seven); the mind knows 'in' or 'out' even when the body and breath are thusly calmed, and this is the breath for the third tetrad. It's rather subtle.

Finally, the fourth tetrad takes whatever remains of the breathing percept and variously applies instructions to foment a "let go" approach - which is a meditation object leading to jhana.
SN 48.10 wrote:"And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana
In this way, anapanasati fulfills satipatthana and leads onward to jhana.

(You may wish to make sure there are no objections to this interpretation, prior to becoming too disappointed/enthusiastic about it. In any event, I hope it helps.)
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Integrating the 4 tetrads into daily practice

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote:(You may wish to make sure there are no objections to this interpretation, prior to becoming too disappointed/enthusiastic about it. In any event, I hope it helps.)
Thanks for the thoughtful responses, it's very helpful in developing understanding of this practice. :smile:
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Re: Integrating the 4 tetrads into daily practice

Post by Spiny Norman »

DarwidHalim wrote:
porpoise wrote: Your interpretation seems to be based on the assumption that first we develop access concentration using mindfulness of breathing, then we do insight meditation on the 4 frames? Have I got that right?
Yes.

This meditation is the one that built on perfect samantha, and slowly you gain your insight through 4 tetrads.
porpoise wrote: Some commentaries say that the first 3 tetrads focus on developing sahadhi and jhana, while the 4th tetrad is insight proper ( the references to piti, sukha and "gladdening the mind" in the second and third tetrads seem to support this interpretation, as does the fact that the first reference to anicca comes in the 4th tetrad ).
THis one actually is not using the tetrad for your jhana. That one you are applying some concepts that may look like using tetrads.
So presumably with your approach one could use any of the 40 meditation objects to develop concentration, and then "do" sattipathana on the four frames? And if one isn't using the breath to develop concentration, then the progression described in the 4 tetrads of the Anapanasati Sutta wouldn't be relevant to the practice?
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DarwidHalim
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Re: Integrating the 4 tetrads into daily practice

Post by DarwidHalim »

porpoise wrote: So presumably with your approach one could use any of the 40 meditation objects to develop concentration, and then "do" sattipathana on the four frames? And if one isn't using the breath to develop concentration, then the progression described in the 4 tetrads of the Anapanasati Sutta wouldn't be relevant to the practice?
The one that make your meditation as samantha and vipassana is not your object.

Although 4 tetrads is supposed to be used as the vipassana meditation basis, they themselves can also be used as samantha meditation.

Therefore, just because you are using 4 tetrads as your meditation, it doesn't mean you are doing vipassana meditation.

The one that really separate samantha and vipassana meditation is how you see your object and with what you see your object.

Let's use the example of 4 tetrads - body.

We can do a pure samantha meditation with this body. We can use awareness for the whole body as the object. If your mind run to New York, you bring your awareness back to your whole body. In this case your meditation is just samantha, not even close to Vipassana.

We can even use the last tetrad, which is mind, as my samantha. I can focus on the state of no thought and get absorb into that. In this case your meditation is just samantha, and not even close to Vipassana.

We can do Samantha meditation without Vipassana. If you take a stone and just look on it for 5 minutes, you have done Samantha without Vipassana.

But, doing Vipassana without Samantha is impossible. Because in Vipassana, we need to maintain a very stable non-conceptual awareness (due to power samantha) to see the behavior or nature of your object, which in these case are those 4 tetrads.

Vipassana cannot be carried out with conceptual awareness. Because if you do that, what you are doing is thinking, and you will involve in concept playing without end. Vipassana can only be done with non-conceptual awareness (naked/bare awareness). Because only in non-conceptual awareness, you can just see, you can just look, without getting involve in concept, without getting involve in thinking.

By looking into how your body changes, how your feeling change, how your thoughts change, you will see and experience very clear here that there is no self that moves.

If you have a conceptual awareness and see how your body move, how your feeling change, how your thoughts change, that is not Vipassana. That is not different with just thinking.

So, what make your meditation Vipassana is not your object, but your non-conceptual awareness in seeing the things.

Samantha meditation although can give you exceptional achievement in jhana, like flying to the sky, seeing your past lives, etc., It itself without any knowledge of reality, which is no-self, is just mundane achievement.

Jhana 1 - will make you born in the 12, 13, 14 realm. Human is No. 5
Jhana 2 - will make you born in the 15, 16, 17 realm.
Jhana 3 - will make you born in the 18, 19, 20 realm.
Jhana 4 - will make you born in the 21 to 27 realm.
Jhana 5 (some classify this as 1st formless jhana) - will make you born in formless realm, No. 28 - Infinite Space.
Jhana 6 (or 2nd formless jhana) - will make you born in formless realm, No. 29 - Infinite Consciousness
Jhana 7 (or 3rd formless jhana) - will make you born in formless realm, No. 30 - Nothingness
Jhana 8 (or 4th formless jhana) - will make you born in formless realm, No. 31 - Neither-perception-nor-non-perception (peak of samsara)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, jhana itself has nothing special.

If we can achieve jhana 4, so what?
If we can achieve jhana 8, so what?

Just in samsara.

The most important aspect of Samantha is actually the stability aspect and the non-conceptual awareness.

THe bliss aspect is also useful, but at the same thing this bliss can become the most dangerous weapon that prevent you to move to Vipassana. Just like how bliss bind all Gods - bind them in samsara.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
Spiny Norman
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Re: Integrating the 4 tetrads into daily practice

Post by Spiny Norman »

DarwidHalim wrote:
porpoise wrote: So presumably with your approach one could use any of the 40 meditation objects to develop concentration, and then "do" sattipathana on the four frames? And if one isn't using the breath to develop concentration, then the progression described in the 4 tetrads of the Anapanasati Sutta wouldn't be relevant to the practice?
Therefore, just because you are using 4 tetrads as your meditation, it doesn't mean you are doing vipassana meditation.
Yes, I see that. But the 4 tetrads are not the same as the 4 frames.
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