paṭissati

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paṭissati

Postby Sekha » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:43 am

does anyone know if it is correct to consider paṭissati as an intensified form of sati?
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As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59
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Re: paṭissati

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:57 am

It is always good to give the context: Satipatthana Sutta
‘Atthi kāyo’ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati

Or indeed his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body exists,' to the extent necessary just for knowledge and remembrance, and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world. (Soma Thera)

Here, paṭissati is translated as "remembrance."
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Re: paṭissati

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:54 pm

I think it is translated the same as sati usually,

yāvad-eva ñāṇamattāya patissatimattāya,
for the purpose of fully developing knowledge and mindfulness,

if I remember correctly I followed Venerable Anandajotis translation with the rendering of that term, the term as I can find quickly now is patissata meaning thoughtful; mindful.
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Re: paṭissati

Postby Sekha » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:33 pm

I know what PTSD says, as it is never farther than a few clicks away, but I'm trying to get further.

the prefix "paṭi" is supposed to add the sense of "against, back to, in reverse direction, back again in return, to, towards, near".. which is not quite easy to decipher in this case

it seems to me that in this context it could mean "completely", just as in the preceding compound (refering here to the mhstp context: ‘atthi kāyo’ ti vā pan·assa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti, yāvadeva ñāṇa·mattāya paṭissati·mattāya): "paccupaṭṭhitā" which is paṭi+upaṭṭhitā and also seems to mean an intensified ("completely") form of upaṭṭhitā

any thoughts?
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59
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Re: paṭissati

Postby daverupa » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:59 pm

Sekha wrote:I know what PTSD says, as it is never farther than a few clicks away, but I'm trying to get further.

the prefix "paṭi" is supposed to add the sense of "against, back to, in reverse direction, back again in return, to, towards, near".. which is not quite easy to decipher in this case

it seems to me that in this context it could mean "completely", just as in the preceding compound (refering here to the mhstp context: ‘atthi kāyo’ ti vā pan·assa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti, yāvadeva ñāṇa·mattāya paṭissati·mattāya): "paccupaṭṭhitā" which is paṭi+upaṭṭhitā and also seems to mean an intensified ("completely") form of upaṭṭhitā

any thoughts?


It can also mean "(c)...setting off in a comparison" or "(d) close contact", which might be read as a call for comparative sati ('earlier state X, now state Y') in the satipatthana context, perhaps for the purpose of noting idapaccayata.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: paṭissati

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:03 pm

Sekha wrote:I know what PTSD says, as it is never farther than a few clicks away, but I'm trying to get further.

the prefix "paṭi" is supposed to add the sense of "against, back to, in reverse direction, back again in return, to, towards, near".. which is not quite easy to decipher in this case

it seems to me that in this context it could mean "completely", just as in the preceding compound (refering here to the mhstp context: ‘atthi kāyo’ ti vā pan·assa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti, yāvadeva ñāṇa·mattāya paṭissati·mattāya): "paccupaṭṭhitā" which is paṭi+upaṭṭhitā and also seems to mean an intensified ("completely") form of upaṭṭhitā

any thoughts?

what I have rendered as "developed" is actually rendered by Ven. Anandajoti as measure, and he uses full presumably for pati.
"a full measure of mindfulness " (from memory) for patissatimattāya.

I am working from memory here and remember I had some issue trying to put this line (as I quoted above) into words.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: paṭissati

Postby Sekha » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:46 pm

so, it seems, Bhante Anandajyoti would agree with my assumption

next time I go to bukit Mertajam, I should visit him!
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59
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Re: paṭissati

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:38 pm

Sekha wrote:so, it seems, Bhante Anandajyoti would agree with my assumption

next time I go to bukit Mertajam, I should visit him!

It would seam that he would, I trust his expertise in this area and can not think of any other word he would use for full in the line above.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: paṭissati

Postby Dmytro » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:45 am

Sekha wrote:does anyone know if it is correct to consider paṭissati as an intensified form of sati?


No. The prefix can hardly be translated in English. So 'paṭissati' means almost the same as 'sati'.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299

Atthakatha explains:

Sampajāno paṭissatoti sampajānapaññāya ceva satiyā ca yutto.

Paṭissatoti paṭissatisaṅkhātāya satiyā yutto.

'paṭi' here is somewhat akin to English 'near':

Gāthāsu ānāpāne paṭissatoti ānāpānanimittasmiṃ paṭi paṭi sato, upaṭṭhitassatīti attho.

Compare with:

Pakatiassāsapakatipassāse nissāya uppannanimittampi assāsapassāsāti nāmaṃ labhati. Upaṭṭhānaṃ satīti taṃ ārammaṇaṃ upecca tiṭṭhatīti sati upaṭṭhānaṃ nāma.

'Sati upaṭṭhāna' means that 'sati', having approached, stays on that basis of concentration (ārammaṇa) (i.e. the perceptual image (nimitta) which has arisen due to natural in-and-out-breath).

Patisambhidamagga-Atthakatha 2.509
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5656

In some cases, it's remembrance to be aware:

Tattha na so rajjati rūpesu, rūpaṃ disvā paṭissatoti yo puggalo rūpaṃ disvā āpāthagataṃ rūpārammaṇaṃ cakkhudvārikena viññāṇasantānena gahetvā catusampajaññavasena sampajānakāritāya paṭissato hoti, so rūpārammaṇesu na rajjati rāgaṃ na janeti, aññadatthu virattacitto vedeti, rūpārammaṇamhi samudayādito yathābhūtaṃ pajānanto nibbindati, nibbindanto taṃ tatthuppannavedanañca virattacitto vedeti, tathābhūto ca tañca najjhosa tiṭṭhatīti taṃ rūpārammaṇaṃ sammadeva virattacittatāya ajjhosāya na tiṭṭhati ‘‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’’ti taṇhāmānadiṭṭhivasena nābhinivisati.

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Re: paṭissati

Postby Sekha » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:15 am

There must be at least a slight difference in meaning, but I guess it is not easy to evaluate what that word may have meant in its usual context 25 centuries ago.

What about the following line though:

if I compare with the words pada & paṭipada:
pada means "step, stride; footprint, trace, track, vestige, mark; a foot; footing, station, site, place;" so something somewhat static
paṭipada means "ingress, access, way, step, course, progress, practice, conduct;" something in motion

so its seems in that case, paṭi shifts slightly the meaning by adding the connotation of movement, evolution, progression, operation, being followed-up

if paṭi had the same meaning in paṭissati, it would probably shift the meaning to mean a followed-up sati, ie. operating, stable, steady sati, whereas just sati can also sometimes be weak and somewhat flickering

such an interpretation really seems to make sense in the context of mhstp (sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti, yāvadeva ñāṇa·mattāya paṭissati·mattāya) since the purpose is indeed to get the sati to become strong and steady.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59
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