Arahant and Kamma

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Arahant and Kamma

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:40 pm

To my understanding (which i volunteer may/is flawed) kamma is said to come from intention and the wholesome kamma comes from acting through non-greed, non-delusion, non=hate and unwholesome by actiong through greed, hatred and delusion. However in an arahant arent all there actions going to be wholesome and so be producing kamma but i read that arahants dont produce any kamma.

Could anyone clarify this point for me?

Metta
:namaste:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Arahant and Kamma

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:50 pm

Greetings clw_uk,

Part of what constitutes volitional in the context of kamma is that it's an action that "I" do. "I" did something good, "I" did something bad.

Arahants don't operate in that mode because they've not only eradicated views of self (which they did at stream-entry) but they've also eradicated any habitual tendencies to think in terms of self. Yet, they still act... they don't become vegetables. In Abhidhamma parlance, these actions are kiriya (functional) rather than kamma (volitional).

Thus experientially for the arahant there is no kamma created.... (and this is where a couple of people may disagree with me, but I continue)... and likewise in the absence of any trace of "I", "me", or "mine" the arahant is beyond the net of vipaka too... the mental results of kamma. By stepping out of the "I", "me", or "mine" mode of thinking, they bypass both aspects of kamma - its action and its fruit. Vipaka cannot touch the arahant because the arahant has gone beyond the dominion of vipaka and its operation... there is then no more becoming.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14674
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Arahant and Kamma

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:00 pm

Thank you for clearing that up for me. There was another question i had that relates more to kamma then to arahants. I know that the hindu concept of kamma is linear, a leads to b which leads to c, what is the buddhist kamma workings, is it shown in dependent origination or is that different? and also how is bodily form the result of kamma?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Arahant and Kamma

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:08 pm

Greetings clw_uk,

clw_uk wrote: is it shown in dependent origination or is that different?


Precisely as shown in dependent origination, but not necessarily so if you insist on the commentarial three-lives version.

clw_uk wrote: and also how is bodily form the result of kamma?


In the...

DN 15 - Mahanidana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

... we can see that consciousness conditions name-and-form, and name-and-form conditions consciousness. The state of consciousness (for a non-arahant) is still in the domain of kamma and vipaka.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14674
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Arahant and Kamma

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:15 pm

Hi clw_uk

It is because an Arahant has destroyed all defilements including the subtle fetters. An arahant also experiences functional class of sobhanacittas which, as explained by Bhikkhu Bodhi, arise only in arahants. These cittas exclude the abstinences because arahants, having cut off defilements, do not need to deliberately refrain from evil deeds.
Metta

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16138
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: Arahant and Kamma

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:30 pm

Hi All,
I contemplated this a while ago, and although I wrote a blog on it not thought about it since.
from memory it agrees with Retro, but some points may differ slightly, but food for thought on the matter anyway?

Calmer Kamma
Friends,
I once heard that Enlightened beings do not produce Kamma, or negative results! I think this is rubbish! I personally think that Enlightened Beings produce Kamma, and receive its results, but the impact of the Vipakka is lesser.
I struggled with understanding Kamma for a long time, and in the end I decided that I understand some aspects of it but not other aspects so I would just have faith that it is how it is with out my understanding, then It came to me, the Kamma of Enlightened Beings is the same as anyone else’s, the only difference is that they have removed the flaws in themselves, and don’t react to the results in the same way, for instance take a lake when certain conditions in the atmosphere arise the waves of the water is rough, and when other conditions arise it is calm but it will always return to having a balanced wave level, neither two rough, or calm, but water can be removed from the lake either with a glass or other container, or evaporation. In this little analogy the waves are like the emotions, mind states, thoughts, and feelings, and although I didn’t mention them the fish are like events in our life, they come, and go, but always remain in the lake in one way or another!
I don’t believe an Enlightened being is free from the circumstances of the world, or has no intentional actions, or incapable of harming another being if the need arose (albeit a possibly rare arising) and I don’t think an Enlightened being is not going to receive the results of those actions be it positive, or negative results, but I do think an Enlightened Being deals with it differently they cope with situations in a different manner to the rest of us.

I remember the Guiding Teacher of the Isle of Man Dhamma Sangha Michael Kewley once told a story about when he asked his teacher Rewata Dhamma a question, he asked if when he became Enlightened if he would be exactly like him? Quite a good question I think! But the reply was interesting “No you will be You!” it is interesting, because it indicates that we don’t change, or that we will change, but remain us, I think the latter is true, otherwise their wouldn’t be different types of Enlightened Beings, or different stages of the path. The path so it seams is multi faceted, not one, not two, but three types of people can walk it and still achieve the same thing yet still be three different people, they have just found the best way for them, and that has led them to the same place. I am not saying each path is just as equal to another path but I am saying there are different ways to get the same result in areas, such as maths 1+2=3 but also 2+1=3 (but that is just a simple example). There was once a Tibetan monk who put stones in a bag each time a thought arose a white stone for a positive thought and a black stone for a negative thought, at the end of the day he would count up the different stones and if he thought more negative thoughts he would chastise himself but if he thought more positive thoughts he would praise himself and see how he could do better, eventually the black stones vanished from the bag at the end of the day, another monk used the Metta meditation for the same results, and another used a contemplation on the 8 Verses for training the Mind, each had the same goal each had slightly differing methods, that is the thing, if something worked once try it, it may be suited for you, but there are other options.

At the end of the day I may be right, I may be wrong, but I share this hoping I am one, or the other.
With Metta
Manapa Bhojanadhikari
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5751
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Arahant and Kamma

Postby Individual » Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:28 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings clw_uk,

Part of what constitutes volitional in the context of kamma is that it's an action that "I" do. "I" did something good, "I" did something bad.

Arahants don't operate in that mode because they've not only eradicated views of self (which they did at stream-entry) but they've also eradicated any habitual tendencies to think in terms of self. Yet, they still act... they don't become vegetables. In Abhidhamma parlance, these actions are kiriya (functional) rather than kamma (volitional).

Thus experientially for the arahant there is no kamma created.... (and this is where a couple of people may disagree with me, but I continue)... and likewise in the absence of any trace of "I", "me", or "mine" the arahant is beyond the net of vipaka too... the mental results of kamma. By stepping out of the "I", "me", or "mine" mode of thinking, they bypass both aspects of kamma - its action and its fruit. Vipaka cannot touch the arahant because the arahant has gone beyond the dominion of vipaka and its operation... there is then no more becoming.

Metta,
Retro. :)

:goodpost:
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
Individual
 
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am


Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bhikkhu Pesala, Majestic-12 [Bot], waryoffolly and 4 guests