Religion - Do we need it?

A place to discuss casual topics amongst spiritual friends.
Mawkish1983
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Re: Religion - Do we need it?

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Well, I think I've said all I can without repeating myself again, and I don't think it's benefit any of us if I did repeat myself, so I'm done [for now :D] :)

:anjali:
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Religion - Do we need it?

Post by jcsuperstar »

:shrug: i guess the real question is does the bad outweight the good...

people wont stop doing good things just because any of the religions we have today are gone, people were pretty much the same before they were around.
they are handy for getting large masses to get behind and approve of horrible things though they dont seem to have the reverse effect.
theyre good for getting people to believe that nothing will change or that things are out of their hands which i find very disturbing.
they seem to inspire in a few people a reason to overcome a situation though and do great things and this in turn inspires others, though sadly most wait on other great people to come along and not to rise up themselves...

i also include buddhism here, the dhamma may or may not be a religion, but take one look at buddhism in asia now or what we know of it going back a couple thousand years and it's a religion just like anyother and has been used to control societies, get approval for war , etc.
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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retrofuturist
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Re: Religion - Do we need it?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I see we're talking about other religions again. :tongue:

To help ensure that this topic does not go the way of the "Overlap between Theravada sila and Biblical commandments" topic, please remember that...

Members are expected to self-moderate, being mindful of the adage that 'behaviour breeds behaviour'. Mutual respect and friendliness should be the basis of all interactions.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Jechbi
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Re: Religion - Do we need it?

Post by Jechbi »

Howdy clw,
clw_uk wrote:I believe it [religion] needs to go because it has no evidence for it, there is no reason to believe or adhere to it. If religion was good then i would say it doesnt matter but it isnt, it has nasty elements that come through and spread not only thought the minds of the believers but into politics where its forced on others.
As a practical matter, how do you propose to bring about the abolition of religion? By imposing non-religion as a matter of law? Or by aggressive proselytizing?

And if you and other like-minded people somehow succeed in abolishing religion through one of these means, what will you do when the powers that be come after the beliefs that you hold dear?

I prefer individual choice in matters such as this, along with the recognition that in a civil society, we need to have respect for opposing views.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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pink_trike
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Re: Religion - Do we need it?

Post by pink_trike »

I find religion, both the institutional aspects and the "religious" mind state, to be unnecessary layers of obscuration, distraction, "defilement", and conceptual confusion that has grown (and been cultivated) like mold on top of actual truth (The Law, The Dharma, The Way, Just What Is, etc...). Religion has no beneficial purpose in our modern culture - and in fact has become a source of much suffering, and the mind-state of religiosity is just fantasy that fuels intellectual/emotional masturbation.

We have a hard time seeing religion clearly in our modern culture for what it is...a hallucinatory fungus that has grown on top of original wisdom that nearly completely hides the stainless truth buried under it. Original wisdom wasn't "religion", "religious", or "spiritual"...it was just a clear understanding of how things work in the phenomenal world and how we can best live in balance with the patterns of time/space and the natural world. Original wisdom was a combination of science (knowledge) and practicality (knowledge put into practice).

Original wisdom is nearly forgotten and lost - there are small distorted bits and pieces of it preserved, obscured, and ignored under layers of lovely, florid religious rantings and ruminations, the weight of heavy powerful institutions, and seductive simulacra that stirs emotional attachment. We're all amnesiacs - a clear memory of original wisdom gradually became lost to us after the global geological/atmospheric events that took place around 10,000 to 12,000 BC destroying a highly advanced global civilization (did you just roll your eyes reactively there?) and humankind has been in a state of post-traumatic stress, denial, and ignorance since then, clinging to false memories and increasingly irrational but comforting stories. Fortunately, rationality, mathematics, and science emerged again and is steadily uncovering the factual basis of original wisdom (and also the cause of our amnesia) which inspires fear, denial, and irritation in religious people who use religion to build a false identity and baseless sense of certainty and who indulge in the mind-state of religiosity in the same way that a drug addict indulges in drug use. And religious institutions have a lot of power, authority, and money to lose if everyone begins to wake up to original wisdom.

Visualize a post-religious era.
Last edited by pink_trike on Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:18 am, edited 5 times in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Religion - Do we need it?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Howdy Jechbi :hello:
As a practical matter, how do you propose to bring about the abolition of religion? By imposing non-religion as a matter of law? Or by aggressive proselytizing?
I try to promote secularism and rationality as much as i can, i would never force people to leave faith as that would go against one of my deeply held beliefs of freedom and free will. I do however ask questions and criticise when appropriate. It is my belief that with enough rational logical thinking then religions will fade away, the main thing standing in the way is the PC attitude of not pressing people in their beliefs, something im against since if their beliefs are so "true" they should stand up against scrutiny
And if you and other like-minded people somehow succeed in abolishing religion through one of these means, what will you do when the powers that be come after the beliefs that you hold dear?
Well i dont hold any beliefs dear. I practice buddhadhamma but that doesnt rely on blind faith since its based on observation on what is and is open to investigation through ones own exp. and scientific research into meditation etc. I dont want to see spirituality go but neither do i see the need to invoke the supernatural and have "faith" in order to be spiritual which to me means being able to be wise and exp. boundless love, compassion and ethical condudct and ending of dukkha etc. No need for gods, angels, heaven, hell, unicorns or vampires etc

I prefer individual choice in matters such as this, along with the recognition that in a civil society, we need to have respect for opposing views.
As i said i dont want to tell people what to do. Do i think religion will ever go? the answer is no which is why i usualy focus more on secularism. If religion must stay then it must stay out of the public sphere and remain private (however idealy religion should go since people will still take their beliefs into the public sphere in a secular goverment, i.e. USA)

Metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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pink_trike
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Re: Religion - Do we need it?

Post by pink_trike »

Jechbi wrote:Howdy clw,
clw_uk wrote:I believe it [religion] needs to go because it has no evidence for it, there is no reason to believe or adhere to it. If religion was good then i would say it doesnt matter but it isnt, it has nasty elements that come through and spread not only thought the minds of the believers but into politics where its forced on others.
As a practical matter, how do you propose to bring about the abolition of religion? By imposing non-religion as a matter of law? Or by aggressive proselytizing?

And if you and other like-minded people somehow succeed in abolishing religion through one of these means, what will you do when the powers that be come after the beliefs that you hold dear?

I prefer individual choice in matters such as this, along with the recognition that in a civil society, we need to have respect for opposing views.
Hi Jechbi

along with the recognition that in a civil society, we need to have respect for opposing views.


Unless those views are irrational to the point of bordering on psychotic and dangerous to individual and societal health. I think it's time we reexamine the blanket acceptance of any old craziness that's packaged itself as "religion".

As a practical matter, how do you propose to bring about the abolition of religion? By imposing non-religion as a matter of law? Or by aggressive proselytizing?
By simply pointing out that the Emperor is wearing no clothes.
And if you and other like-minded people somehow succeed in abolishing religion through one of these means, what will you do when the powers that be come after the beliefs that you hold dear?
What makes you think that there are "powers" coming after religion? Religious people tend to feel threatened by something "out there" when their religious beliefs are put under the microscope or rejected as irrationality. Just because a growing number of people have examined religion/religiosity and found it to be false and useless doesn't mean anyone is coming after religion or religious people.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Religion - Do we need it?

Post by tiltbillings »

While the question is of interest, the execution of it by the OP is less than productive in its black and white negativity. There are other venues for that sort of discussion. Religion, be it Buddhism or any of the theistic variations, has a role to play in human development. It should, however, never be above criticism, but there is no point in engaging in a scorched earth policy towards it, and for that reason this thread is locked.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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