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What does "arising & passing away" mean? - Dhamma Wheel

What does "arising & passing away" mean?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
dhammapal
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What does "arising & passing away" mean?

Postby dhammapal » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:28 am







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Dmytro
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Re: What does "arising & passing away" mean?

Postby Dmytro » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:25 am



vinasp
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Re: What does "arising & passing away" mean?

Postby vinasp » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:23 pm

Hi dhammapal,

This is an interesting passage. For those who may wish to do some research
I would like to provide this additional material.

This passage is found in about forty places in the four Nikaya's.
Here are the first twenty of them:

DN 33.2.1.(16), 33.3.3.(1), 34.1.6.(1), 34.2.3.(1)
MN 53.17, 85.58, 90.10
SN 48.9, 48.10, 48.11; 55.33, 55.37, 55.43
AN 5.2, 5.14,5.47, 5.53, 5.134, 5.135, 5.136; 7.4, 7.6, 7.67 [7.63?]

The Pali is:

idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako paññavā hoti udayatthagāminiyā paññāya samannāgato ariyāya nibbedhikāya, sammā dukkhakkhayagāminiyā

"Here, bhikkhus, the noble disciple is wise; he possesses wisdom directed
to arising and passing away, which is noble and penetrative, leading to
the complete destruction of suffering [195]."

[Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected Discourses, page 1671, SN 48.9]

This particular Sutta is about the five faculties, and the passage quoted
above is the definition of the faculty of wisdom.

The same passage is also found in the lists of "powers" as the power of
wisdom.

In MN 53.11 to 17 it is listed as one of the "seven good qualities" of a
noble disciple. Here Bodhi's translation is slightly different:

"... he possesses wisdom regarding rise and disappearance that is noble ..."

More to follow, Regards, Vincent.
Last edited by vinasp on Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pegembara
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Re: What does "arising & passing away" mean?

Postby pegembara » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:55 pm

Human experience = mind-matter or nama-rupa

Matter - Seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, tactile sensations. Eg. sounds arise and pass away, then an itch A&P etc.

Mind- Perceptions, Feelings and thoughts also arises and passes. eg. one thought, then another etc.

Since all these arise and passes but "you" are still here, these things are not you. Since you have no control over them [ they arise & pass without you choosing] they cannot belong to you.

You see these in vippasana meditation.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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James the Giant
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Re: What does "arising & passing away" mean?

Postby James the Giant » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:18 pm

Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.

Aleksandra
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Re: What does "arising & passing away" mean?

Postby Aleksandra » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:10 pm

"Samudaya - seeing of arising of phenomena, passing away of phenomena, and also the stage of udayabbaya-ñana, the knowledge of arising and passing away of phenomena, all those are spoken of as if they were the same thing. Many people, when they experience the phenomena of arising, and the phenomena of passing in their practice, they refer to it as the knowledge of arising and passing, which is an error.

Before yogi arrives at udayabbaya-ñana, the knowledge of arising and passing, it takes a lot of time. Even to come to samudaya– seeing of arising and seeing of ceasing, the mind has to have calmed down and the yogi has to arrive at purification of view first, and only subsequently he arrives at samudaya. I can’t accept that the person who is doing all sorts of other things can arrive at this level of knowledge within ten days. To think that a person can arrive at knowledge of arising and passing in two, three weeks or so is a joke.

In the Lord Buddha’s time, just by hearing short words of the Buddha, some people arrived at insight and the Satipatthana states in half a day, or one day, in seven days or seven years. Different people can arrive at knowledge in short periods of time as well. In the Lord Buddha’s time there were such individuals."

This is an excerpt from Dhamma talk given by Ven. Pemasiri Thera.
Ven. Pemasiri says that a meditator does not need to know these terms or their meaning, and that having learned theory before gaining certain experience or level in meditation those kind of theory can be a burden as a meditator might just sit there thinking: "is this such and such knowledge, is this such and such state, is this samatha,... vipassana... first jhana...?" One can also attain stages of enlightenment without knowing any of these terms and being able to recognize any of those states and phenomena. Being able to understand those knowledges through thinking is not likely. Once can either experience them in meditation, or 'spontaneously' providing there is existence of the right conditions.
Different teachers teach in different ways and some of them may explain all those terms to a meditator.
Also, we all experience and describe things in different ways, so when talking about things like this, misunderstanding, disagreement and confusion may arise despite us all talking about the same thing.

pegembara
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Re: What does "arising & passing away" mean?

Postby pegembara » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:02 pm

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

vinasp
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Re: What does "arising & passing away" mean?

Postby vinasp » Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:09 pm

Hi everyone,

idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako paññavā hoti udayatthagāminiyā paññāya samannāgato ariyāya nibbedhikāya, sammā dukkhakkhayagāminiyā

"Here, bhikkhus, the noble disciple is wise; he possesses wisdom directed
to arising and passing away, which is noble and penetrative, leading to
the complete destruction of suffering [195]."

The key term is the compound: udayatthagāminiyā.

The PED entry for "udaya" reads:

Udaya [fr. ud + i, cp. udeti] rise, growth; increment, increase; income, revenue, interest A ii.199; Ps i.34; Vv 847 (dhanɔatthika uddayaŋ patthayāna = ānisaŋsaŋ atirekalābhaŋ VvA 336); 8452; DhA ii.270; PvA 146 (ulār vipāka), 273 (˚bhūtāni pañca kahāpaṇa -- satāni labhitvā with interest); Sdhp 40, 230, 258. -- See also uddaya.
-- attha rise and fall, birth & death (to attha;2) M i.356 S v.197 sq., 395; A iii.152 sq.; iv.111, 289, 352; v.15 25. -- atthika desirous of increase, interest or wealth (cp above Vv 847 dhanɔatthika) A ii.199. -- bbaya (ud -- aya vy -- aya) increase & decrease, rise & fall, birth & death up & down D ;iii.223; S i.46 = 52 (lokassa); iii.130 A ii.90; iii. 32; iv.153; It 120; Vism 287; Ps i.54; ThA 90 -- vyaya = ˚bbaya S iv.140; A ii.15 (khandhānaŋ); Dh 113, 374 (khandhānaŋ, see DhA iv.110).[End Quote]

The term "udaya" seems, to me, to refer to a gradual increase over time.

But the meaning in a compound could be different.

Regards, Vincent.

vinasp
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Re: What does "arising & passing away" mean?

Postby vinasp » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:08 pm

Hi everyone,

The only passage that I can find that may help with understanding the
time-scale is this one:

"And what, bhikkhus, is the faculty of wisdom? Here, bhikkhus, the noble
disciple is wise; he possesses wisdom directed to arising and passing away,
which is noble and penetrative, leading to the complete destruction of
suffering. He understands as it really is:'This is suffering.' He understands
as it really is:'This is the origin of suffering.' He understands as it really
is:'This is the cessation of suffering.' He understands as it really is:'This
is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.' This is called the faculty
of wisdom."

[Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected Discourses, page 1673, part of SN 48.10]

So it seems to mean the understanding of the four truths. That this suffering
has come to be, that is has a certain cause, that it will cease when the cause
is removed, and that there is a practice which will lead to the cessation of
this suffering.

Regards, Vincent.

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mikenz66
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Re: What does "arising & passing away" mean?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:07 pm



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