Do Buddhist believe in god?

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Cittasanto
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Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Cittasanto »

I was just searching for something and noticed an interesting link (which I shall share elsewhere) but it linked to this.
[url=http://www.buddhanet.net/ans73.htm]Good Questions Good Answers with Ven. S Dhammika[/quote] wrote:Do Buddhist believe in god?

No, we do not. There are several reasons for this. The Buddha, like modern sociologists and psychologists, believed that religious ideas and especially the god idea have their origin in fear. The Buddha says:

"Gripped by fear men go to the sacred mountains,
sacred groves, sacred trees and shrines".

Dp 188

Primitive man found himself in a dangerous and hostile world, the fear of wild animals, of not being able to find enough food, of injury or disease, and of natural phenomena like thunder, lightning and volcanoes was constantly with him. Finding no security, he created the idea of gods in order to give him comfort in good times, courage in times of danger and consolation when things went wrong. To this day, you will notice that people become more religious at times of crises, you will hear them say that the belief in a god or gods gives them the strength they need to deal with life. You will hear them explain that they believe in a particular god because they prayed in time of need and their prayer was answered. All this seems to support the Buddha’s teaching that the god-idea is a response to fear and frustration. The Buddha taught us to try to understand our fears, to lessen our desires and to calmly and courageously accept the things we cannot change. He replaced fear, not with irrational belief but with rational understanding.

The second reason the Buddha did not believe in a god is because there does not seem to be any evidence to support this idea. There are numerous religions, all claiming that they alone have god’s words preserved in their holy book, that they alone understand god’s nature, that their god exists and that the gods of other religions do not. Some claim that god is masculine, some that she is feminine and others that it is neuter. They are all satisfied that there is ample evidence to prove the existence of their god but they laugh in disbelief at the evidence other religions use to prove the existence of another god. It is not surprising that with so many different religions spending so many centuries trying to prove the existence of their gods that still no real, concrete, substantial or irrefutable evidence has been found. Buddhists suspend judgement until such evidence is forthcoming.

The third reason the Buddha did not believe in a god is that the belief is not necessary. Some claim that the belief in a god is necessary in order to explain the origin on the universe. But this is not so. Science has very convincingly explained how the universe came into being without having to introduce the god-idea. Some claim that belief in god is necessary to have a happy, meaningful life. Again we can see that this is not so. There are millions of atheists and free-thinkers, not to mention many Buddhists, who live useful, happy and meaningful lives without belief in a god. Some claim that belief in god’s power is necessary because humans, being weak, do not have the strength to help themselves. Once again, the evidence indicates the opposite. One often hears of people who have overcome great disabilities and handicaps, enormous odds and difficulties, through their own inner resources, through their own efforts and without belief in a god. Some claim that god is necessary in order to give man salvation. But this argument only holds good if you accept the theological concept of salvation and Buddhists do not accept such a concept. Based on his own experience, the Buddha saw that each human being had the capacity to purify the mind, develop infinite love and compassion and perfect understanding. He shifted attention from the heavens to the heart and encouraged us to find solutions to our problems through self-understanding.
What do you think of the representation here?

personally I believe this misrepresents Theravada as there are gods found in the texts, how Buddhism Vissions Gods may not be in the same light, but that doesn't mean that they aren't included.
I will do a more detailed responce at a later point but just thought I would throw it out there for everyone to mull over.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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tiltbillings
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:personally I believe this misrepresents Theravada as there are gods found in the texts, how Buddhism Vissions Gods may not be in the same light, but that doesn't mean that they aren't included.
I will do a more detailed responce at a later point but just thought I would throw it out there for everyone to mull over.
Not much to mull over. The gods found in the suttas are kamma bound beings, which is considerably different from a singular omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos, which the Buddha rejected.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

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tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:personally I believe this misrepresents Theravada as there are gods found in the texts, how Buddhism Vissions Gods may not be in the same light, but that doesn't mean that they aren't included.
I will do a more detailed responce at a later point but just thought I would throw it out there for everyone to mull over.
Not much to mull over. The gods found in the suttas are kamma bound beings, which is considerably different from a singular omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos, which the Buddha rejected.
Yes but Brahma does believe he is the creator....
but what about how it represents Buddhist "beliefs" as shown in the texts?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by DNS »

Cittasanto wrote: Yes but Brahma does believe he is the creator....
but what about how it represents Buddhist "beliefs" as shown in the texts?
Other gods believed he was the creator and Brahma admits this and bluntly states he is not.

The texts clearly show that there is no creator and belief in such is called one of the wrong views.
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

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Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:personally I believe this misrepresents Theravada as there are gods found in the texts, how Buddhism Vissions Gods may not be in the same light, but that doesn't mean that they aren't included.
I will do a more detailed responce at a later point but just thought I would throw it out there for everyone to mull over.
Not much to mull over. The gods found in the suttas are kamma bound beings, which is considerably different from a singular omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos, which the Buddha rejected.
Yes but Brahma does believe he is the creator....
but what about how it represents Buddhist "beliefs" as shown in the texts?
Yes; however, Brahma finally admits, in light of the Buddha's teachings, to the Buddha that he, Brahma, got it wrong.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Yana »

Hi everyone,

I think there are gods..like it's not that they DON"T exist...they do...just not the way people think they do...for example a god who forgives your sins OR a one and True God the Creator..

gods Do exist but we don't owe our salvation to them..we help ourselves.. :)
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

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tiltbillings wrote:Yes; however, Brahma finally admits, in light of the Buddha's teachings, to the Buddha that he, Brahma, got it wrong.
Hi Tilt, David, Yana.
Yes, however characterizing Buddhism as Atheistic can be misleading.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Kim OHara »

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Yes; however, Brahma finally admits, in light of the Buddha's teachings, to the Buddha that he, Brahma, got it wrong.
Hi Tilt, David, Yana.
Yes, however characterizing Buddhism as Atheistic can be misleading.
Hi, Cittasanto,
Buddhism is atheistic to about the same extent that night skies are dark.
The Abrahamic religions are theistic to about the same extent that daytime skies are light.
I think we in the West are best off calling Buddhism atheistic, because it *is* atheistic in comparison to the dominant understanding of religion and theism in the societies we live in.

:namaste:
Kim
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Yes; however, Brahma finally admits, in light of the Buddha's teachings, to the Buddha that he, Brahma, got it wrong.
Hi Tilt, David, Yana.
Yes, however characterizing Buddhism as Atheistic can be misleading.
We have recently had this discussion at great length already. It depends upon how one defines atheism. The Buddha certainly did not affirm theism, and if anything, he rejected the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Cittasanto »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Hi, Cittasanto,
Buddhism is atheistic to about the same extent that night skies are dark.
The Abrahamic religions are theistic to about the same extent that daytime skies are light.
I think we in the West are best off calling Buddhism atheistic, because it *is* atheistic in comparison to the dominant understanding of religion and theism in the societies we live in.

:namaste:
Kim
hi Kim,
Richard Dawkins said something along the lines of "everyone is atheistic, it just depends on which Gods you reject"
Theism in its broadest sense is the belief that at least one god exists, so just because we happen to come from a predominantly Abrahamic religious area does not mean theism, as a term, does not cover more, i.e., deistic gods, & gods who are not creator gods as in the Abrahamic monotheistic or a pantheistic model.

so how Buddhism visions god/s (G or g) is one thing, and atheistic notions are another, Buddhism certainly accepts gods

Anyway off to work.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Ben »

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Yes; however, Brahma finally admits, in light of the Buddha's teachings, to the Buddha that he, Brahma, got it wrong.
Hi Tilt, David, Yana.
Yes, however characterizing Buddhism as Atheistic can be misleading.
We have recently had this discussion at great length already. It depends upon how one defines atheism. The Buddha certainly did not affirm theism, and if anything, he rejected the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos.
Yes, and if I am not mistaken he did that quite a number of times.
There is no doubt that the Buddha and his disciples did speak about different celestial beings which are recorded in the suttas. I think one needs to look at the role of gods in Buddhism and the role of god in Christianity/Judaism/Islam. While the vast majority of Buddhists in SE Asia do believe in celestial beings, they are not considered to be anything other than fellow beings in samsara, devoid of any salvific power over any other being.
Furthermore, Buddhists are not required to believe in a god, the belief in which, is the key to one's entry into a post-mortem rebirth in the company of that god.
kind regards,

Ben
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:
Buddhism certainly accepts gods
Yes. That is something that has been covered here and with a far bit more nuance than you are showing. The gods that Buddhism "accepts" are kamma bound, mortal beings. Hardly putting the Dhamma into a theistic camp and certainly not excluding from being very broadly considered atheistic.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

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tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
Buddhism certainly accepts gods
Yes. That is something that has been covered here and with a far bit more nuance than you are showing.
I fail to see the point of such a statement tilt?
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

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Ben wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:We have recently had this discussion at great length already. It depends upon how one defines atheism. The Buddha certainly did not affirm theism, and if anything, he rejected the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos.
Yes, and if I am not mistaken he did that quite a number of times.
Certainly but there are many kinds of gods other than an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos, Thor for example was not considered any of these, Yet still a god.
Theism referes to more than just monotheistic ideas, and also covers beings who are not considered as the Abrahamic god.
There is no doubt that the Buddha and his disciples did speak about different celestial beings which are recorded in the suttas. I think one needs to look at the role of gods in Buddhism and the role of god in Christianity/Judaism/Islam.
Why?
wouldn't it be more appropriate to compare Buddhism with Theism in a general sense rathar than narrowing the spectrum to a known refutation of one kind of belief in a god?
An atheist today does not believe in any theistic notions of a god/s, whether pantheistic or monotheistic, it is oversimplifying the spectrum to narrow the field of view to monotheism of the Abrahamic faiths when there are more both pantheistic & monotheistic (Zoroastrianism).
While the vast majority of Buddhists in SE Asia do believe in celestial beings, they are not considered to be anything other than fellow beings in samsara, devoid of any salvific power over any other being.
I would like to know what salvific power hades had, or Manannán mac Lir?
Furthermore, Buddhists are not required to believe in a god, the belief in which, is the key to one's entry into a post-mortem rebirth in the company of that god.
I am not 100% sure what you mean here?
in case I do understand what you are saying,
It is my understanding that a being would rise up to a divine plane, or sink down to a state of deprivation if they had acted in a way which would lead to that destination regardless of belief. same with a pot of ghee, if the pot is broken the ghee would float to the top and the clay pot would sink
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:
Ben wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:We have recently had this discussion at great length already. It depends upon how one defines atheism. The Buddha certainly did not affirm theism, and if anything, he rejected the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos.
Yes, and if I am not mistaken he did that quite a number of times.
Certainly but there are many kinds of gods other than an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos, Thor for example was not considered any of these, Yet still a god.
Theism referes to more than just monotheistic ideas, and also covers beings who are not considered as the Abrahamic god.
The Buddha is the teacher of god and humans. From a Buddhist perspective Thor would be no different from any of the other devas. The significant point is, which you seem to be missing, is that for whatever gods there are claimed to be and whatever might be claimed of them, from the Buddha's perspective these gods are at best kamma bound, mortal beings and there is no singular unchanging causal agent of the universe. While the Buddha redefines the gods as kamma bound, mortal beings, the epithet of theism does not meaningfully apply to the Buddha's teachings given that the gods have no unique, necessary role to play in the one's awakening -- thus, Buddhist atheism.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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