Do Buddhist believe in god?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, Cittasanto, in reading your writing it is not always easy getting what you are trying to say. Also, you are simply going around in circles with all of this, which is your choice, but it is kind of a waste of time. The fact of the matter is that "atheism" does not have a hard and fast definition that would not allow us to talk about Buddhist atheism in the ways I have indicated above.
circles? you should realize I am responding to what you say, so look at yourself first.
Since you posted first and I responded to you . . . .
However I do believe I have found a compromise, and one I was unaware of/forgotten about & not known it being used in regard to Buddhism
Non-theistic
I have no problem with that, except you would need a book to explain what it means, but, oh, look, it has already been done: BUDDHISM: A Non-Theistic Religion by Helmuth Von Glasenapp, a very good work, worth reading.
its benefit is that it does away with one aspect of theism (namely the connotations of theology which not all theistic religions have in the way christianity does) and doesn't sugest that there are no gods in Buddhism,
Non-theistic, especially the way you have been using the word god(s), certainly does suggest there are no gods at all in Buddhism. The locution Buddhist atheism, on the other hand speaks to the issue that there is no omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique agent that is the cause of the cosmos in Buddhism. It says nothing about the mortal "gods."

and as the wiki article quotes Pema Chödrön
The difference between theism and nontheism is not whether one does or does not believe in God.[...] Theism is a deep-seated conviction that there's some hand to hold [...] Non-theism is relaxing with the ambiguity and uncertainty of the present moment without reaching for anything to protect ourselves [...] Nontheism is finally realizing there is no babysitter you can count on.
The problem with this, however, is that in Indian Buddhism the idea of a creator god was beat up and rejected quite strongly. The mortal "gods" were pretty much left alone.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Cittasanto »

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:However I do believe I have found a compromise, and one I was unaware of/forgotten about & not known it being used in regard to Buddhism
Non-theistic
I have no problem with that, except you would need a book to explain what it means, but, oh, look, it has already been done: BUDDHISM: A Non-Theistic Religion by Helmuth Von Glasenapp, a very good work, worth reading.
A book?
Pema seamed to do a good job in less.
although I don't know of the trustworthyness of the link you give (not in terms of viruses...) so I wont be reading that doc sorry.
its benefit is that it does away with one aspect of theism (namely the connotations of theology which not all theistic religions have in the way christianity does) and doesn't sugest that there are no gods in Buddhism,
Non-theistic, especially the way you have been using the word god(s), certainly does suggest there are no gods at all in Buddhism. The locution Buddhist atheism, on the other hand speaks to the issue that there is no omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique agent that is the cause of the cosmos in Buddhism. It says nothing about the mortal "gods."[/quote]
how have I been using it?
I have been refering to a being, so I do not see how I have used it is such a way that would negate them.
although Atheism as in the linited scope (i think the third or fourth) explanation you give earlier would be a polytheist, polydeist, agnostic, i.e they either believe in multiple or don't give a thought to it. I believe one would be hard pushed to find an atheist who would acually believe in multiple gods and not the monotheistic model.

although I remember in one of Venerable Analayos lectures (first intake) he mentions how the refutation doesn't refute a deistic, or pan-deistic god although that being would probably fall in the creator god category talked about a few posts back, not really payed more attention to it other than enough to spring to mind.
and as the wiki article quotes Pema Chödrön
The difference between theism and nontheism is not whether one does or does not believe in God.[...] Theism is a deep-seated conviction that there's some hand to hold [...] Non-theism is relaxing with the ambiguity and uncertainty of the present moment without reaching for anything to protect ourselves [...] Nontheism is finally realizing there is no babysitter you can count on.
The problem with this, however, is that in Indian Buddhism the idea of a creator god was beat up and rejected quite strongly. The mortal "gods" were pretty much left alone.
although they weren't regarded as a support or refuge.
there are references to appeasing the gods through offerings (one in another thread live at the moment) and I have mentioned a few times in the past the Karaniya metta sutta being an example through the origin story, but then it isn't a strong suggestion by any stretch.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:However I do believe I have found a compromise, and one I was unaware of/forgotten about & not known it being used in regard to Buddhism
Non-theistic
I have no problem with that, except you would need a book to explain what it means, but, oh, look, it has already been done: BUDDHISM: A Non-Theistic Religion by Helmuth Von Glasenapp, a very good work, worth reading.
A book?
Pema seamed to do a good job in less.
Not really. Not at all, actually, particularly when one considers how the idea of a god was dealt with in India, where Buddhists had to contend with god religions. As I said, the Buddha and those doctors of the faith that came after him beat up and rejected the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique agent that is the cause of the cosmos.
I have been refering to a being, so I do not see how I have used it is such a way that would negate them.
You have been referring to beings, gods, which you tell us that the word theism would encompass because there are many differing ideas of god(s) and that atheism would negate any acknowledgement of those gods within the Buddhist suttas. It would seems, then, that to say Buddhism is non-theistic would suggest that there are no gods at all in the Buddhist suttas.
although Atheism as in the linited scope (i think the third or fourth) explanation you give earlier would be a polytheist, polydeist, agnostic, i.e they either believe in multiple or don't give a thought to it. I believe one would be hard pushed to find an atheist who would acually believe in multiple gods and not the monotheistic model.
I have used atheism strictly and only in terms of the idea of omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique agent that is the cause of the cosmos as well as in terms of the idea of a self-existing, eternal being(s).
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Cittasanto »

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: Pema seamed to do a good job in less.
Not really. Not at all, actually, particularly when one considers how the idea of a god was dealt with in India, where Buddhists had to contend with god religions. As I said, the Buddha and those doctors of the faith that came after him beat up and rejected the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique agent that is the cause of the cosmos.

So her comment does not take the Buddhist attitude of gods into account?
You have been referring to beings, gods, which you tell us that the word theism would encompass because there are many differing ideas of god(s) and that atheism would negate any acknowledgement of those gods within the Buddhist suttas. It would seems, then, that to say Buddhism is non-theistic would suggest that there are no gods at all in the Buddhist suttas.
as I have said
its benefit is that it does away with one aspect of theism (namely the connotations of theology which not all theistic religions have in the way christianity does) and doesn't sugest that there are no gods in Buddhism
This actually moves the importance away from the theological aspect, which was the one thing I had a problem with theism as a term.
so maybe a more precise "non-theistic approach" would be better.
I have used atheism strictly and only in terms of the idea of omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique agent that is the cause of the cosmos as well as in terms of the idea of a self-existing, eternal being(s).
you are either being strict or inclusive which is it?

you have only argued from one (which only addressed the view of a being claiming such characteristics) not of the existence of the being making the claim, other than them being delusional.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote: . . .
Keeping this simple, when asked about God and its role within Buddhism, we could either say that Buddhism is a non-theistic religion, or we could talk about Buddhist atheism. In either case, either position would need a fair amount of exposition to make clear what is meant, given that neither locution "Buddhism is non-theistic” or “Buddhist atheism” by themselves tell us much of anything useful.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Cittasanto »

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: . . .
Keeping this simple, when asked about God and its role within Buddhism, we could either say that Buddhism is a non-theistic religion, or we could talk about Buddhist atheism. In either case, either position would need a fair amount of exposition to make clear what is meant, given that neither locution "Buddhism is non-theistic” or “Buddhist atheism” by themselves tell us much of anything useful.
can you address the other questions please!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: . . .
Keeping this simple, when asked about God and its role within Buddhism, we could either say that Buddhism is a non-theistic religion, or we could talk about Buddhist atheism. In either case, either position would need a fair amount of exposition to make clear what is meant, given that neither locution "Buddhism is non-theistic” or “Buddhist atheism” by themselves tell us much of anything useful.
can you address the other questions please!
They already have been addressed, more than once.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Cittasanto »

tiltbillings wrote:They already have been addressed, more than once.
So Pema Chondron quote is not accurate why?
sorry you have by far not addressed this
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:They already have been addressed, more than once.
So Pema Chondron quote is not accurate why?
This quote?:

The difference between theism and nontheism is not whether one does or does not believe in God.[...] Theism is a deep-seated conviction that there's some hand to hold [...] Non-theism is relaxing with the ambiguity and uncertainty of the present moment without reaching for anything to protect ourselves [...] Nontheism is finally realizing there is no babysitter you can count on.
Non-theism suggests that there are no gods of any sort within Buddhism.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Cittasanto »

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:They already have been addressed, more than once.
So Pema Chondron quote is not accurate why?
This quote?:

The difference between theism and nontheism is not whether one does or does not believe in God.[...] Theism is a deep-seated conviction that there's some hand to hold [...] Non-theism is relaxing with the ambiguity and uncertainty of the present moment without reaching for anything to protect ourselves [...] Nontheism is finally realizing there is no babysitter you can count on.
Non-theism suggests that there are no gods of any sort within Buddhism.
That was a responce to something else earlier!
and as the wiki article quotes Pema Chödrön
The difference between theism and nontheism is not whether one does or does not believe in God.[...] Theism is a deep-seated conviction that there's some hand to hold [...] Non-theism is relaxing with the ambiguity and uncertainty of the present moment without reaching for anything to protect ourselves [...] Nontheism is finally realizing there is no babysitter you can count on.
The problem with this, however, is that in Indian Buddhism the idea of a creator god was beat up and rejected quite strongly. The mortal "gods" were pretty much left alone.
You were only specific with the quote in this regard and what I said with you responce on non-theism, which was being discussed.
you had a problem with the depiction of god/s specifically with what Pema said, and this is what I have been responding to with regard to Pema Chodron.

Also have you been specific or general with your use of the term atheist?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:You were only specific with the quote in this regard and what I said with you responce on non-theism, which was being discussed.
you had a problem with the depiction of god/s specifically with what Pema said, and this is what I have been responding to with regard to Pema Chodron.
Unclear what you are saying here.
Also have you been specific or general with your use of the term atheist?
I have spelled out how I have been using the term, but maybe you need to clarify, in lucid, concise English what you mean here. Unless I know what you are saying, there is no way I can respond to you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Cittasanto »

and as the wiki article quotes Pema Chödrön
The difference between theism and nontheism is not whether one does or does not believe in God.[...] Theism is a deep-seated conviction that there's some hand to hold [...] Non-theism is relaxing with the ambiguity and uncertainty of the present moment without reaching for anything to protect ourselves [...] Nontheism is finally realizing there is no babysitter you can count on.
The problem with this, however, is that in Indian Buddhism the idea of a creator god was beat up and rejected quite strongly. The mortal "gods" were pretty much left alone.
you had a problem with the depiction of god/s specifically with what Pema said, and this is what I have been responding to with regard to Pema Chodrons quote specifically.
Also have you been specific or general with your use of the term atheist?
I have spelled out how I have been using the term, but maybe you need to clarify, in lucid, concise English what you mean here. Unless I know what you are saying, there is no way I can respond to you.
which is in a strict sense, not in a way which would require "as well as".
I have used atheism strictly and only in terms of the idea of omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique agent that is the cause of the cosmos as well as in terms of the idea of a self-existing, eternal being(s).
strange I have been asking what you are saying here, maybe you should look at yourself and your use of English before criticising another's in such a way.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote: you had a problem with the depiction of god/s specifically with what Pema said, and this is what I have been responding to with regard to Pema Chodrons quote specifically.
I have a "problem" with what she said in as much as it really does not account for what is actually going on in the texts and how the doctors of Buddhism in India have dealt with the issue.

As for the rest of it, it is clear enough. As I said either option "Buddhism, a non-theistic religion" or "Buddhist atheism" woud require a fair amount of explanation.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by Ben »

I think that one of the issues here seem to be arising from not agreeing on what constitutes theism.
Oxford English Dictionary wrote:Theism: belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe
I am going to take the specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe, as an important qualification in the definition. And if I were to use the above definition then I would conclude that while gods exist within the Buddhist cosmology, it is essentially an atheistic doctrine because of the rejection of a creator who intervenes in the universe.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ben wrote:I think that one of the issues here seem to be arising from not agreeing on what constitutes theism.
Oxford English Dictionary wrote:Theism: belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe
I am going to take the specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe, as an important qualification in the definition. And if I were to use the above definition then I would conclude that while gods exist within the Buddhist cosmology, it is essentially an atheistic doctrine because of the rejection of a creator who intervenes in the universe.
kind regards,

Ben
That is pretty much it. No need to complicate things, unless one wants to write a book. And, of course, opinions vary.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Post Reply