I'd also suggest that people who are religious not take a critical analysis of religion and religiosity personally - it's not about "you", and it's not "bashing" and it isn't "ridicule". It's simply more valuable discussion, as long as no one feels the need to defend something.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Jechbi wrote "Another person expressed the view that religion "needs to go." This rhetoric sounds to me a lot like the rhetoric of "the Jews must go" or "the infidels must go" or other such divisive language that has spawned so much violence in the past"
this reads to me as saying that if i say religion must go i must want the jews to go or the xtians to go or the muslims to go and so must harbour somekind of racist or biggoted attitude towards people when in fact i say religion must go, not people
I know this want jechbi's intention (or i think it wasnt) to label me as racist or biggot etc but i feel it was strongly implied
Now then my opinion based on my observations of religion is that it would be better for mankind if it went, thats my opinion. Perhaps people disagree which is fine. Lets have a discussion about why you think its good and should stay (which was the intent of the other thread). Its not about attacking people or hating things but a serious discussion about religion and is it of any benefit or not
Metta
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Seems that thread disappeared. I'm curious why...it must have gotten pretty rowdy in there to warrant disappearing the entire thread rather than just closing it or moderating out whatever was deemed inappropriate. Maybe there was something that couldn't be edited out without looking odd? Down the memory hole. Lemme check the color of this site to see if it's grey, because it's feeling at the moment like I ended up at the wrong site.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
tiltbillings wrote:Also, keep in mind that the point of this thread is the question of tolerance and intolerance towards religion, not the critique of religion.
How can they realistically be separated?
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
tiltbillings wrote:I think one can discuss the dangers of intolerance towards religion without entering into a full blown attack on religion.
There are both religious and non-religious Buddhists. How would you frame a dialogue between the two groups, specifically about the religious element of Buddhism, so that no one feels attacked? It seems that it is a touchy subject so let's discuss how the topic can productively discussed without reactivity.
[edited not knowing that it was being replied to as I edited].
Last edited by pink_trike on Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
tiltbillings wrote:I think one can discuss the dangers of intolerance towards religion without entering into a full blown attack on religion.
There are both religious and non-religious Buddhists. How would you frame a dialogue between the two groups, specifically about the religious element of Buddhism, so that no one feels attacked?
That is the challenge.
>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
I agree that intolerance of religion is bad just as intolerance of most things is negative however thats not what was happening on this site. For example No doubt you dont believe in osiris because of your rationality and logic has lead you to conclude that he most likely doesnt exsist and belief in him or practice of the religion he is assoctiated with is irrational and not needed. You did this without being intolerant you just examined it, thats all im doing but including the modern day religions as well (and non-theistic ones as well as theistic)
Now i am sorry if i upset you or anyone else thats not my intent but i do feel its an important discussion to have
Metta
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Except if others feel that it is happening, you cannot say that it is not.
No doubt people here have felt that i have been intolerant but as i said with the Osiris similie that isnt the case at all. Was some of the wording i used not to good and taken the wrong way, sure maybe so but my intent wasnt to cause harm or to come accross as intolerant and i apologize again if i have done so
Metta
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Regarding the thread with comments about Tibetan Buddhism, I posted what I thought was a very polite response expressing my sadness to see these remarks, as I am a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism myself. However the whole thread disappeared soon afterwards.
No doubt people here have felt that i have been intolerant but as i said with the Osiris similie that isnt the case at all.
Your intention may have been one thing, but via probale unskillfullness some may have felt otherwise, and that is their perception, in effect, their reality. There needs to be a bit more of a nuanced appreciation of what is being said, how it said, and the consequences of that.
>> Do you see a man wise[enlightened/ariya]in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
No doubt people here have felt that i have been intolerant but as i said with the Osiris similie that isnt the case at all.
Your intention may have been one thing, but via probale unskillfullness some may have felt otherwise, and that is their perception, in effect, their reality. There needs to be a bit more of a nuanced appreciation of what is being said, how it said, and the consequences of that.
...in writing and reading, from everyone involved in the discussion no matter what their belief.
Last edited by pink_trike on Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.