"The Deathless" (amata)

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:22 am

kirk5a wrote:Those words are describing stream entry, I think they are in complete agreement with how stream entry is described in the Visuddhimagga and elsewhere, and I accept those as true and accurate accounts.

the Visuddhimagga wrote:4. As soon as conformity knowledge has arisen in him in this way, and the
thick murk that hides the truths has been dispelled by the respective force peculiar
to each of the three kinds of conformity (see XXI.129f.), then his consciousness
no longer enters into or settles down on or resolves upon any field of formations
at all, or clings, cleaves or clutches on to it, but retreats, retracts and recoils as
water does from a lotus leaf, and every sign as object, every occurrence as object,
appears as an impediment.
5. Then, while every sign and occurrence appears to him as an impediment,
when conformity knowledge’s repetition has ended, change-of-lineage
knowledge arises in him, which takes as its object the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána
Okay. Now where in this is "the quality within one that isn't subject to arising or passing away"?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:57 am

tiltbillings wrote:Okay. Now where in this is "the quality within one that isn't subject to arising or passing away"?

"the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:18 am

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Okay. Now where in this is "the quality within one that isn't subject to arising or passing away"?

"the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána"
Which, however, does not "exist" before the "change-of-lineage knowledge" arises, before the cessation, and, of course, the terms "the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána" all make my point.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:32 am

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Okay. Now where in this is "the quality within one that isn't subject to arising or passing away"?

"the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána"
Which, however, does not "exist" before the "change-of-lineage knowledge" arises, before the cessation, and, of course, the terms "the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána" all make my point.

No apparently they do not make your point. Because you continually dispute with "the deathless," and "the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbana" = "the deathless."

change-of-lineage knowledge arises in him, which takes as its object...Nibbana...which, being the first
adverting, the first concern, the first reaction, to Nibbána as object...
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby daverupa » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:09 pm

:thinking:

That's not the dispute I have seen; I have seen tilt clarifying whether or not such terms become ossified and taken as existent objects, not whether one metaphor equates with another.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:12 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote:"the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána"
Which, however, does not "exist" before the "change-of-lineage knowledge" arises

Please support this assertion with evidence. Specifically, since we are referring to the Visuddhimagga at the moment, where in the Visuddhimagga it says that Nibaana does not exist before the change of lineage knowledge arises.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Nyana » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:04 pm

kirk5a wrote:No apparently they do not make your point. Because you continually dispute with "the deathless," and "the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbana" = "the deathless."

change-of-lineage knowledge arises in him, which takes as its object...Nibbana...which, being the first
adverting, the first concern, the first reaction, to Nibbána as object...


Extinguishment (nibbāna) is an absence. This is implied in Ud 8.1 by the long list of negations, which include stating that there is no object (anārammaṇa). However, some difficulties arose when the commentators were trying to systematically explain how there can be knowledge of nibbāna, and in so doing, posited nibbāna as a real existent with its own nature (sabhāva).

As an analogy, when there is no pot on the table one can know that there is no pot on the table via direct perception. But this doesn't mean that there is an existent "non-pot" or the presence of a "potless" thing that one perceives as the absence of a pot. Or in terms of the fire metaphor found in the suttas, when a fire goes out one can know that the fire has been extinguished via direct perception. But this doesn't entail that there is an existent "extinguishment" (i.e. a "non-fire") or the presence of an "extinguished" thing that one perceives as the absence of fire.
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:32 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:Extinguishment (nibbāna) is an absence. This is implied in Ud 8.1 by the long list of negations, which include stating that it is not an object (anārammaṇa). However, some difficulties arose when the commentators were trying to systematically explain how there can be knowledge of nibbāna, and in so doing, posited nibbāna as a real existent with its own nature (sabhāva).

So then you are saying that the account of stream entry in the Visuddhimagga is inaccurate as stated. Even though it agrees completely with the Buddha's own words here:

He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

compare:

then his consciousness
no longer enters into or settles down on or resolves upon any field of formations
at all, or clings, cleaves or clutches on to it, but retreats, retracts and recoils as
water does from a lotus leaf, and every sign as object, every occurrence as object,
appears as an impediment.
5. Then, while every sign and occurrence appears to him as an impediment,
when conformity knowledge’s repetition has ended, change-of-lineage
knowledge arises in him, which takes as its object the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána,
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Nyana » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:52 pm

kirk5a wrote:So then you are saying that the account of stream entry in the Visuddhimagga is inaccurate as stated.

What I'm suggesting is that it's very helpful to understand the historical development of these epistemological issues and how these developments can give rise to unnecessary pseudo-problems when negations regarding cessation are posited as the presence of substantially existent things. But if you want to believe in potlessness and the presence of non-fires Kirk, then that's fine by me.
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:35 pm

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote:"the signless, nonoccurrence, non-formation, cessation, Nibbána"
Which, however, does not "exist" before the "change-of-lineage knowledge" arises

Please support this assertion with evidence. Specifically, since we are referring to the Visuddhimagga at the moment, where in the Visuddhimagga it says that Nibaana does not exist before the change of lineage knowledge arises.
It is very possible that I read through the VM passage you quote without the care I should have taken, having responded at work between bouts of activity. And now, having worked a long night shift, I am off the lap of goddess of sleep. If you would be kind enough to point out to me where "change-of-lineage knowledge" after nibbana, I'd appreciate it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:34 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:What I'm suggesting is that it's very helpful to understand the historical development of these epistemological issues and how these developments can give rise to unnecessary pseudo-problems when negations regarding cessation are posited as the presence of substantially existent things. But if you want to believe in potlessness and the presence of non-fires Kirk, then that's fine by me.

I do not have any problems, pseudo or otherwise, with those words quoted above.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:37 pm

tiltbillings wrote: If you would be kind enough to point out to me where "change-of-lineage knowledge" after nibbana, I'd appreciate it.

I don't understand what you are asking here.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:46 pm

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: If you would be kind enough to point out to me where "change-of-lineage knowledge" after nibbana, I'd appreciate it.

I don't understand what you are asking here.

Well, let me put it this way: I do not understand what you asking here:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10569&p=196562#p196555
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:52 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: If you would be kind enough to point out to me where "change-of-lineage knowledge" after nibbana, I'd appreciate it.

I don't understand what you are asking here.

Well, let me put it this way: I do not understand what you asking here:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10569&p=196562#p196555

I don't know what that link is supposed to be referring to, nor is your question above understandable, because it's not grammatical English.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:35 pm

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: If you would be kind enough to point out to me where "change-of-lineage knowledge" after nibbana, I'd appreciate it.

I don't understand what you are asking here.
I would not undertand it either, given that I left out an important word. I need to talk with my proof-reader about catching missing words.

Well, let me put it this way:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10569&p=196562#p196543

And in turn, it seems that you are suggesting that "change-of-lineage knowledge" comes after the realization of nibbana. What I am asking is If you would be kind enough to point out to me, in the VM passages quoted, where "change-of-lineage knowledge" comes after nibbana. I'd appreciate it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:11 am

tiltbillings wrote:And in turn, it seems that you are suggesting that "change-of-lineage knowledge" comes after the realization of nibbana. What I am asking is If you would be kind enough to point out to me, in the VM passages quoted, where "change-of-lineage knowledge" comes after nibbana. I'd appreciate it.

I am not "suggesting" something about the order of things as described in the VM. I can understand your question now, but I'm still at a loss as to what you are driving at. The VM says what it says.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:45 pm

Heedfulness: the path to the Deathless.
Heedlessness: the path to death.
The heedful do not die.
The heedless are as if
already dead.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Heedfulness = appamāda

appamāda: Heedfulness; diligence; zeal. The cornerstone of all skillful mental states, and one of such fundamental import that the Buddha's stressed it in his parting words to his disciples: "All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring about completion by being heedful!" (appamādena sampādetha).

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html

"Monks, when one quality is established in a monk, the five faculties are developed & developed well. Which one quality? Heedfulness.

"And what is heedfulness? There is the case where a monk guards his mind with regard to [mental] fermentations and mental qualities accompanied by fermentations. When his mind is guarded with regard to fermentations and mental qualities accompanied by fermentations, the faculty of conviction goes to the culmination of its development. The faculty of persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment goes to the culmination of its development.

"This is how when one quality is established in a monk, the five faculties are developed & developed well."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:56 pm

kirk5a wrote:
Heedfulness: the path to the Deathless.
Forunately, there is no "the Deathless."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:57 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
Heedfulness: the path to the Deathless.
Forunately, there is no "the Deathless."

What would your view be in Pali?

natthi amata dhatu?

Is there any expression of that in the canon?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:13 pm

kirk5a wrote:What would your view be in Pali?

natthi amata dhatu?

Is there any expression of that in the canon?
What do you mean by dhatu? You brought it up, now you get to explain it. Right now, I am off to bed after a long night of tending to the needs of the patients under my care, so you should have plenty of time to look at this word in its various usages. A good place to start is to ask: What other words get put in front of it?

Also, keep in mind, what I am addressing is the issue of a not so good translation -- "the Deathless." I have given extensive textual exegesis and grammatical evidence to support my position, and I would expect the same in return. Also, what is "the Deathless" in relation to a tathagata/to a buddha/to an arahant/to bodhi?

Heedfulness: the path to freedom from death.
Heedlessness: the path to death.
The heedful do not die.
The heedless are as if
already dead.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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