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The Eye is Impermanent. - Page 5 - Dhamma Wheel

The Eye is Impermanent.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
vinasp
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby vinasp » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:16 pm

Hi everyone,

2. sabbe sankhara dukkha - All formations are suffering.

a) All external constructive activities are suffering - makes no sense.
b) All external constructed things are suffering - makes no sense either.

A bird building its nest, or a potter making a pot, cannot be said to be
suffering. Nor can the nest or the pot be said to be suffering.

c) All mental constructive activities are suffering, this is true.
d) All mental constructed things are suffering, this is also true.

Should we not understand sankhara in the same way for both lines? If so, then
we should reject the "external" option for line 1.

So sankhara has to be understood as mental.

Now, any object made by a mental constructive activity persists only as long
as the activity, and ceases when the activity ceases.

Therefore, it does not matter which meaning of sankhara we use in line 1.

1. sabbe sankhara anicca - All mental formations are impermanent.

This means: All mental constructive activities, and constructed objects, are
impermanent. [We still have to decide what impermanent means.]

2. sabbe sankhara dukkha - All mental formations are suffering.

This means: All mental constructive activities, and constructed objects, are
suffering.

Now, since those who are being instructed can become enlightened at any time,
and since enlightenment is the cessation of mental suffering...

And, since the formations are the same in lines 1 and 2, we now know what
impermanent means.

1. All mental constructive activities, and constructed objects, can cease at
any time - including now.

2. All mental constructive activities, and constructed objects, are mental
suffering.

Regards, Vincent.

Nyana
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby Nyana » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:44 pm


vinasp
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby vinasp » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:38 am

Hi Nana,

If you can demonstrate that I am wrong on any points, I will be most grateful.
All I am attempting to do is to discover the truth about the Nikaya teachings.

Nana said: "Seeing ceases every time one closes one's eyes or goes to sleep."

Well, then it does not really cease, does it? Not if by ceasing we mean a
permanent and complete cessation.

Nana said: ""Seeing" (passati, disvā, etc.) a form via the eye (e.g MN 38: cakkhunā rūpaṃ disvā) is an occurrence of eye-consciousness."

And can you cite a passage from the Nikaya's which shows that seeing and
eye-consciousness are the same thing?

Nana said: "This is quite untenable. Eye-consciousness arises and ceases many times during the course of one day."

Does it? Can you cite a passage which shows that?

And even if you can, this would not be the complete and permanent cessation
which would follow from the cessation of the six-spheres.

Kind regards, Vincent.

Nyana
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby Nyana » Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:11 am


vinasp
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby vinasp » Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:36 am

Hi Nana,

Nana said: "An arahant still experiences the six spheres. MN 121: ..."

MN 9 said:

"There would. When a disciple of the noble ones discerns the six sense media, the origination of the six sense media, the cessation of the six sense media, and the way of practice leading to the cessation of the six sense media, then he is a person of right view... who has arrived at this true Dhamma. ..."

Would you care to explain this apparent contradiction?

Kind regards, Vincent.

Sylvester
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby Sylvester » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:51 am


Nyana
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby Nyana » Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:24 am


vinasp
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby vinasp » Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:36 am

Hi Nana,

Your explanation makes no sense to me. Does what you call "the full development
of the noble eightfold path", result in the cessation of ignorance - or not?

Kind regards, Vincent.

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mikenz66
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:37 am


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mikenz66
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:48 am


Nyana
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby Nyana » Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:57 am


vinasp
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Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby vinasp » Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:14 am

Hi Nana,

If ignorance has ceased for this arahant, then according to the DO formula
the six-spheres have also ceased.

I agree that the arahant still has the five actual senses and a mind.

Which is correct, the DO formula, which says that the six-spheres cease, or
MN 121 which says that they are still present?

Kind regards, Vincent.

vinasp
Posts: 1675
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Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby vinasp » Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:38 am

Hi everyone,

"Bhikkhus, there are these four noble truths. Which four? The noble truth of
suffering, the noble truth of the origin of suffering, the noble truth of the
cessation of suffering, the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation
of suffering.
"And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering? It should be said:
the six internal sense bases. What six? The eye base ... the mind base.
This is called the noble truth of suffering. ...

[ The rest is the same as in the "standard" version. BB, CD, SN 56.14]

So, the noble eightfold path leads to the cessation of ... the six internal
sense bases.

Regards, Vincent.

Nyana
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby Nyana » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:18 pm


Sylvester
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Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby Sylvester » Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:44 pm


vinasp
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Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby vinasp » Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:39 pm

Hi Nana,

vinasp wrote:"Which is correct, the DO formula, which says that the six-spheres cease, or MN 121 which says that they are still present?"

Nana replied: "There's no contradiction. Both are correct."

It is no good just making assertions. Where are your arguments?

There clearly is an apparent contradiction.

vinasp wrote: "So, the noble eightfold path leads to the cessation of ... the six internal sense bases."

Nana replied:"Again, there's no point in conflating the nibbānadhātu with fuel ..."

I am not "conflating" anything, that statement follows logically and directly
from the sutta which I cited [SN 56.14].

Here is another passage which says the same thing:

"If, through revulsion towards the eye, through its fading away and cessation,
one is liberated by nonclinging, one can be called a bhikkhu who has attained
Nibbana in this very life." [Part of SN 35.155]

Kind regards, Vincent.

vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby vinasp » Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:59 pm

Hi Sylvester,

Sylvester said: "SN 12.51 makes clear that an Arahant continues to feel, which is only possible if the 6 indriyas/faculties continue after awakening."

Then how do you interpret this passage:

"If, through revulsion towards the eye, through its fading away and cessation,
one is liberated by nonclinging, one can be called a bhikkhu who has attained
Nibbana in this very life." [Part of SN 35.155]

Kind regards, Vincent.

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby Nyana » Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:23 pm


vinasp
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Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby vinasp » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:09 pm

Hi Nana,

The contradiction is not just between DO and MN 121.

Let us not argue over different interpretations of DO.

This passage is also in apparent contradiction with MN 121:

"If, through revulsion towards the eye, through its fading away and cessation,
one is liberated by nonclinging, one can be called a bhikkhu who has attained
Nibbana in this very life." [Part of SN 35.155]

How do you explain this apparent contradiction?

Kind regards, Vincent.

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mikenz66
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Location: New Zealand

Re: The Eye is Impermanent.

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:41 pm



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