Pali Canon

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Paul Davy
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Paul Davy » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:07 pm

Greetings,

clw_uk wrote:Which is the oldest part of the sutta pitaka?


It's very much a sutta-by-sutta affair... but the following is a very rough guide... SN, AN/MN, DN, KN.

Metta,
Retro. :)
What is the final conviction that comes when radical attention is razor-edge sharp? That the object of the mind is mind-made (manomaya). (Ven. Ñāṇananda)

Having understood name-and-form, which is a product of prolificity,
And which is the root of all malady within and without,
He is released from bondage to the root of all maladies,
That Such-like-one is truly known as 'the one who has understood'.
(Snp 3.6)

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Dhammanando
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:03 am

Hi Craig,

clw_uk wrote:Which is the oldest part of the sutta pitaka?


Theravada tradition holds that it was all recited at the First Council, excepting only those suttas taught by arahant disciples some time after the Buddha's passing. So, for those who accept this view obviously the oldest part of the Sutta Piṭaka will be that which the Buddha taught first: his speech to Upaka on the way to Sarnath and then the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.

Modern Pali scholars, on the other hand, propose a variety of theories about the oldest stratum. Some argue for the Aṭṭhakavagga and Parāyanavagga of the Suttanipāta, others for certain suttas from the Majjhima Nikāya, others for an hypothesized proto-Saṃyutta Nikāya, etc. etc.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    Yathā bubbuḷakaṃ passe, yathā passe marīcikaṃ,
    Evaṃ lokaṃ avekkhantaṃ, maccurājā na passati.

    One should see it as a bubble;
    One should see it as a mirage.
    Who regards the world thus
    The King of Death sees him not.
    (Dhammapada 170)


    ผู้ที่มองเห็นโลก ว่าไม่จีรังและหาสาระอะไรมิได้
    เช่นเดียวกับคนมองฟองน้ำและพยับแดด
    คนเช่นนี้พญามารย่อมตามหาไม่พบ ฯ
    (ธรรมบท ๑๗๐)

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Cittasanto
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:21 am

Hi Dhammanando
Dhammanando wrote:obviously the oldest part of the Sutta Piṭaka will be that which the Buddha taught first: his speech to Upaka on the way to Sarnath and then the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.


I thought the Dhammacakkavattana was the first?
“Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.
(The mendicants asked) What are the two [types of persons]?
(The Lord Buddha responded) The malicious, or the inwardly angry, and the one with (blind) faith or the one who holds things incorrectly.
Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.”
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
"Others will misconstrue reality based on personal perspectives, firmly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our personal perspectives, nor firmly holding them, but easily discarded."

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Dhammanando
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:40 am

Hi Manapa,

Manapa wrote:I thought the Dhammacakkavattana was the first?


It's true that the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta is classed as the Buddha's first teaching of Dhamma (dhammadesanā). However, before this, while he was on his way to the Deer Park, the Buddha met the ājīvaka Upaka and the following dialogue ensured:

    Upaka:

    "Your faculties are serene, friend; the complexion of your skin is clear and bright. Under whom have you gone forth? Or who is your teacher? Or whose Dhamma do you confess?"

    The Buddha:

    "I am an All-transcender, an All-knower,
    Unsullied by all things, renouncing all,
    By craving's ceasing freed. And this I owe
    To my own wisdom. To whom should I concede it?

    "I have no teacher, and my like
    Exists nowhere in all the world
    With all its gods, because I have
    No person for my counterpart.

    "I am the Teacher in the world
    Without a peer, accomplished, too,
    And I alone am fully awakened,
    Quenched, whose fires all extinct.

    "I go to Kāsi's city now
    To set the Wheel of Dhamma
    In motion: in a blindfold world
    I go to beat the Deathless Drum."

    Upaka:

    "By your claims, friend, you are a Universal Victor."

    The Buddha:

    "The victors like me, Upaka,
    Are those whose taints are quite exhausted;
    I have vanquished all states of evil:
    It is for that I am a Victor."

    When this was said, the ājīvaka Upaka remarked: "May it be so, friend"; shaking his head, he took a side track and departed.
    (Vin.i.8; MN.i.170-1. trans. from Ñāṇamoli's Life of the Buddha)

However, the above exchange is not viewed as a dhammadesanā, but rather as a vāsanābhāgiya sutta, i.e. a discourse aimed at establishing someone on a wholesome course. In Upaka's case this bore fruit later, when, after contracting a miserable marriage, he went forth and ended his life as an anāgāmin.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    Yathā bubbuḷakaṃ passe, yathā passe marīcikaṃ,
    Evaṃ lokaṃ avekkhantaṃ, maccurājā na passati.

    One should see it as a bubble;
    One should see it as a mirage.
    Who regards the world thus
    The King of Death sees him not.
    (Dhammapada 170)


    ผู้ที่มองเห็นโลก ว่าไม่จีรังและหาสาระอะไรมิได้
    เช่นเดียวกับคนมองฟองน้ำและพยับแดด
    คนเช่นนี้พญามารย่อมตามหาไม่พบ ฯ
    (ธรรมบท ๑๗๐)

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Cittasanto
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Re: Pali Canon

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:07 am

Hi Dhammanando
Thanks!
I was going to add is it something to do with the difference in style such as one being a teaching the other a conversation, or something of the like that poped in my mind at the time!
With Metta
Manapa
Dhammanando wrote:Hi Manapa,

Manapa wrote:I thought the Dhammacakkavattana was the first?


It's true that the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta is classed as the Buddha's first teaching of Dhamma (dhammadesanā). However, before this, while he was on his way to the Deer Park, the Buddha met the ājīvaka Upaka and the following dialogue ensured:

    Upaka:

    "Your faculties are serene, friend; the complexion of your skin is clear and bright. Under whom have you gone forth? Or who is your teacher? Or whose Dhamma do you confess?"

    The Buddha:

    "I am an All-transcender, an All-knower,
    Unsullied by all things, renouncing all,
    By craving's ceasing freed. And this I owe
    To my own wisdom. To whom should I concede it?

    "I have no teacher, and my like
    Exists nowhere in all the world
    With all its gods, because I have
    No person for my counterpart.

    "I am the Teacher in the world
    Without a peer, accomplished, too,
    And I alone am fully awakened,
    Quenched, whose fires all extinct.

    "I go to Kāsi's city now
    To set the Wheel of Dhamma
    In motion: in a blindfold world
    I go to beat the Deathless Drum."

    Upaka:

    "By your claims, friend, you are a Universal Victor."

    The Buddha:

    "The victors like me, Upaka,
    Are those whose taints are quite exhausted;
    I have vanquished all states of evil:
    It is for that I am a Victor."

    When this was said, the ājīvaka Upaka remarked: "May it be so, friend"; shaking his head, he took a side track and departed.
    (Vin.i.8; MN.i.170-1. trans. from Ñāṇamoli's Life of the Buddha)

However, the above exchange is not viewed as a dhammadesanā, but rather as a vāsanābhāgiya sutta, i.e. a discourse aimed at establishing someone on a wholesome course. In Upaka's case this bore fruit later, when, after contracting a miserable marriage, he went forth and ended his life as an anāgāmin.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
“Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.
(The mendicants asked) What are the two [types of persons]?
(The Lord Buddha responded) The malicious, or the inwardly angry, and the one with (blind) faith or the one who holds things incorrectly.
Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.”
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
"Others will misconstrue reality based on personal perspectives, firmly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our personal perspectives, nor firmly holding them, but easily discarded."

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 3006
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Phrao, Chiang Mai

Re: Pali Canon

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:15 am

Hi Manapa,

Manapa wrote:I was going to add is it something to do with the difference in style such as one being a teaching the other a conversation, or something of the like that poped in my mind at the time!


The difference lies in the outcome of the teaching. A vāsanābhāgiya sutta, like that given to Upaka, doesn't result in the arising of the Dhamma eye (i.e. the attainment of stream-entry or higher) in the listener, nor is it intended to. Any sutta where the Buddha limits his teaching to dāna, sīla, heavenly rebirth etc. is classed as vāsanābhāgiya.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    Yathā bubbuḷakaṃ passe, yathā passe marīcikaṃ,
    Evaṃ lokaṃ avekkhantaṃ, maccurājā na passati.

    One should see it as a bubble;
    One should see it as a mirage.
    Who regards the world thus
    The King of Death sees him not.
    (Dhammapada 170)


    ผู้ที่มองเห็นโลก ว่าไม่จีรังและหาสาระอะไรมิได้
    เช่นเดียวกับคนมองฟองน้ำและพยับแดด
    คนเช่นนี้พญามารย่อมตามหาไม่พบ ฯ
    (ธรรมบท ๑๗๐)

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clw_uk
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Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Pali Canon

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:38 pm

Thank you for repying to my post :smile: , sorry for late reply forgot to come back and check this thread :rolleye:
The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search.
Sextus Empiricus


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